WASHINGTON — The Heartland Institute, a libertarian think tank skeptical of climate change science, has joined with the conservative American Legislative Exchange Council to write model legislation aimed at reversing state renewable energy mandates across the country.
The Electricity Freedom Act, adopted by the council’s board of directors in October, would repeal state standards requiring utilities to get a portion of their electricity from renewable power, calling it “essentially a tax on consumers of electricity.” Twenty-nine states and the District of Columbia have binding renewable standards; in the absence of federal climate legislation, these initiatives have become the subject of intense political battles.
The legislative council, or ALEC, is a conservative-leaning group of state legislators from all 50 states that has sought to roll back climate regulation in the past. It lost some corporate sponsors early this year because of its role promoting “stand your ground” laws that allow the use of force in self-defense without first retreating when faced with a serious threat.
But the involvement of the Heartland Institute, which posted a billboard in May comparing those who believe in global warming to domestic terrorist Theodore Kaczynski, shows the breadth of conservatives’ efforts to undermine environmental initiatives on the state and federal level. In many cases, the groups involved accept money from oil, gas and coal companies that compete against renewable energy suppliers.
The Heartland Institute received more than $7.3 million from Exxon Mobil between 1998 and 2010, and nearly $14.4 million between 1986 and 2010 from foundations affiliated with Charles and David Koch, whose firm Koch Industries has substantial oil and energy holdings.
James Taylor, the Heartland Institute’s senior fellow for environmental policy, said he was able to persuade most of ALEC’s state legislators and corporate members to push for a repeal of laws requiring more solar and wind power use on the basis of economics.
“Renewable power mandates are very costly to consumers throughout the 50 states, and we feel it is important that consumers have access to affordable electricity,” Taylor said. “We wrote the model legislation and I presented it. I didn’t have to give that much of a case for it.”
Taylor dismissed the idea that his group pushed for the measure because it has accepted money from fossil-fuel firms: “The people who are saying that are trying to take attention away from the real issue — that alternative energy, renewable energy, is more expensive than conventional energy.”
Todd Wynn, who directs ALEC’s energy, environment and agriculture task force, said the group decided to take up the issue because some of its members are worried about the mandates’ “impacts on their state’s economies and their constituents.”
“It is not that ALEC is opposed to renewable energy in any way,” Wynn said. “But we are opposed to government intervention mandating certain energy sources over others.”
But renewable energy officials — including ones from the Solar Energy Industries Association and the American Wind Energy Association, both ALEC members — questioned the new policy. Setting renewable targets is a popular way to diversify a state’s energy mix and lock in long-term prices, they said, while alternative energy costs continue to decline.
“ALEC is going to wake up and realize that the Heartland Institute, which is funded by special interests, is pushing them in a direction that’s making them irrelevant to, or at best out of touch with, the American public,” said SEIA President Rhone Resch. “And they can’t afford to do that.”
As part of its effort to roll back renewable standards, ALEC is citing economic analyses of state policies co-published by Suffolk University’s Beacon Hill Institute and the State Policy Network. Both groups have received donations from foundations funded by the Koch brothers.
The analyses — which examine current or proposed standards in states as Maine, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina and Oregon — assume that the Energy Information Administration’s projected renewable energy price estimates are too low, and that cost-containment measures embedded in state policies will fail. As a result, the reports conclude Kansas’ requirement to obtain 20 percent of its electricity will cost consumers $644 million over the next eight years, while Oregon’s goal of 25 percent renewable electricity by 2025 will cost consumers $992 million by 2025.
Beacon Hill Institute research economist Michael Head said he and his two co-authors were skeptical the cost caps outlined in legislation would kick in.
“We just left it out so we could provide the actual analysis of the policy itself,” Head said, adding that the central question is not whether renewable energy costs more but “the matter of degree. You’re certainly going to have these higher electricity prices. They will have profound negative consequences for the states’ economies.”
But Gabe Elsner, co-director of the public watchdog group Checks and Balances Project, said the legislation and economic reports amount to “a one-two punch against clean energy laws across the country” by fossil-fuel interests.
“You push the legislation to state legislators and then you fund reports to support the argument and convince state lawmakers,” Elsner said, “and all without any transparency or disclosure about the sources of this funding.”
David Tuerck, executive director of the Beacon Hill Institute and chair of Suffolk University’s economics department, said Koch funding did not determine the report’s conclusions about renewable energy.
“Koch certainly has not had the only role in funding these studies,” Tuerck said, adding the other donors had asked to remain anonymous.
It remains unclear whether the new drive to repeal state renewable standards will succeed: Similar efforts over the past two years have failed in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Kansas, Massachusetts, Ohio, Oregon and Washington.
“Renewable standards passed over the last decade have been supported on a bipartisan basis, and that was before the dramatic growth in manufacturing and construction jobs the industry created,” said Rob Gramlich, the American Wind Energy Association’s senior vice president for public policy. “Attacks on state renewable energy policies in 2012 failed consistently and we are confident they will again in 2013.”
Wynn said that while it may be hard to make headway in the next year, he was optimistic his side could start to dismantle some of the state requirements in 2014.
“These discussions are just starting to ramp up, and the impacts of these mandates are just starting to be seen in these states,” he said.
Resch said despite the policy differences between the state legislators’ group and his industry, his group would maintain its membership.
“We’re committed to work with conservatives, and ALEC is a vehicle to do that,” he said.

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227 Comments

  1. Who would have ever thought that in 2012 we’d have a group of people screaming in favor of further destruction of ecosystems? Even IF (and that’s a big if) all our pollution of the planet’s atmosphere isn’t creating a predictable greenhouse effect, does it not seem like a good idea to try as hard as we can to put less filth into such a system rather than more? Forget the planet for a second, clearly at the very least we know we all will have to breath the air these folks seem to aspire to make toxic. I think I’ll take a pass on supporting toxic air and rivers that burn. Been there, done that, lessons learned.

    1. Even the World Bank is issuing scary warnings about the future, based on global warming and our carbon emissions:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/world-bank-warns-of-4-degree-threshhold/2012/11/19/aa298dd0-3023-11e2-a30e-5ca76eeec857_story.html

      Those who vehemently refuse to see are in the psychological state of denial, and — unfortunately — many of them will never get free of that mental trap, even as hurricanes magnify, ice caps melt, and the ecosystems shift.

    2. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that. It’s common sense. Businesses that can’t act in an environmentally safe manner should not be allowed to do business.

      The response by some Republicans to the gulf oil spill was memorable – they were concerned about hurting BP’s feelings and Obama being “anti-business” by demanding they clean up and pay damages! It was incredible. Thousands of Americans livelihoods were ruined, not to mention the environmental damage done…and these people were more concerned about defending BP than they were about helping their own citizens.

    3. Who would have thought that in 2012 people still failed to realize we are coming out of a ICE AGE and thus the planet is getting warmer.

      I do not think anybody supports purposeful destruction of the environment. That said it is amazing how many people support destroying things that have no effect. All the while supporting things that APPEAR to be non harmful when in fact they are doing more harm then good.

      1. You know, in my day there were plenty of folks who also said that humans were not responsible for the mercury in our lakes, loss of eagles in our skies, fish in our streams, or birth defects in our children. Often tragically, they too were all wrong. When YOU prove that placing more and more greenhouse gases into our planet’s atmosphere is absolutely fine, I’ll get on board with burning more fossil fuels from people in other areas of this world who want nothing more than to see all Americans die. Until then, I’m backing anything but what you’re selling.

    4. The fact that Maine DEP Commissioner, Patricia Aho, is a former lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of confidence that the LePage administration will handle this issue in an objective manner.

  2. When these global warming predictors can tell me the weather for the month of Jan, like how much is it gonna snow, rain ect… they can not predict the weather for next week let alone what gonna happen in like 20 years, in the 70s we were gonna have a global freeze, what happened to that bunch? its called weather it changes get over it. If the sea(s) are rising so dam much why did al gore buy a beach house??

    1. You are confused.

      Models that predict weather and models that predict climate answer two very different questions.

      Our ability to predict weather has improved dramatically with improved models.

      Climate models have also advanced dramatically and keep telling us the same thing – if we do not reduce greenhouse gas emissions, we will alter the climate that sustains our civilization.

      For the worse.

      Wake up.

      P.S. Climate scientists did not predict a “global freeze” in the 1970’s – that nonsense was the product of an over-imaginative writer from Newsweek.

      There is no peer reviewed climate paper from the 1970’s that predicted a “global freeze”.

      Nossuh

      1. If the earth warmed up ever year for the last 100 year . It has not . That would only be 1 47,000,000th of the time earth has been here how is this a pattern ? Think of it this way a 1000 years is like A day. We can make are best guess that global warming is caused by fossil fuel burning . But that is only an educated guess . We know ice ages come and go . May if we are making global warming we a protecting against the next mini ice age like happened in the 1,400s. Scientist do not have all the answers . We can not even predict the sunspot cycle .

        1. Ummm…there are these things called “thermometers”.

          They measure something called “temperature”.

          Reliable thermometer records go back to the mid-19th Century…

          …and that record has been verified by 18O/16O ratios in gases tapped in glacier ice, marine sediments, corals, tree rings, calcite deposits in caves and borehole temperature profiles.

          The Earth is warming and it is because humans are releasing 7 billion tonnes of carbon to the atmosphere each year.

          And – oh please – sunspots follow a predictable 11-year cycle – that has been known for centuries.

          The US is the most science-illiterate industrial country on the planet and I see evidence of this every single day.

          1. What was the cause of the last Ice age? or the mini Ice age? what caused to to warm up after? Sunspot do follow a cycle but not predictable in intensity . During the Mini Ice age almost no Sunspot were reported ,

          2. What caused the Pleistocene glaciations?

            CO2 positive feedbacks from orbital forcing.

            CO2 goes down – glacial advance

            CO2 goes up – interstadial

            CO2 is currently going way up due to human activities – and all the feedbacks are positive.

            We are changing the climate – well beyond that attributable any natural forcings

            Period.

            Yessah

    1. Technically, our environment, like the universe, is infinite. But we certainly exist in a closed, finite ecosystem.

  3. Imagine, a group that gets most of its money from oil companies comes out against renewable energy sources. Imagine, an ultra right wing organization using fear and distortions to influence voters to back their hidden agenda. When will these out of state losers figure it out that the Maine voter is not like the sheep in some other states and we cannot be influenced by the millions of dollars you are willing to spend to buy votes. Remember, we elected George Mitchell who marshaled in the clean water act. The rivers in Maine are amazingly cleaner because of it. I remember when you could not get near the Penobscot and the Kenduskeag Rivers due to the smell, let alone have canoe races there.

    1. Fair enough, the rivers did stink. But notice that the source of that stink, the paper industry, is now mostly gone.

      1. Renewable energy’s dirty little secret is that it’s not all about water, wind and sunshine. Some of these paper mills are now producing renewable energy products, like torrified wood, which I understand to be bad for air and water quality. We have to be careful when we make the relationship between renewable and green.

        Any scientist or expert in the field, though, please feel free to join the discussion. I couldn’t find reading materials online about torrification or much about the Old Town mill, which, according to a previous BDN article was cited for ‘pollution’ while being lauded as a “bell weather industry” in Maine magazine for its renewable technologies.

        We just need to be careful making the distinction between green and renewable.

        http://bangor-launch.newspackstaging.com/2011/06/24/business/old-town-mill-finds-new-life-in-old-product-%E2%80%94-wood-pulp/

        http://bangor-launch.newspackstaging.com/2012/01/11/politics/taxpayers-spending-millions-on-old-town-mill-that-keeps-on-polluting/

        http://www.themainemag.com/travel/location/1721-the-post-paper-mills.html

        1. “We have to be careful when we make the relationship between renewable and green.”

          We have to stop burning stuff to produce energy. Period. Failure to do so will, according to the recent World Bank report, will result in a planet with average temperatures 7 degrees warmer than now. In case you are unaware, the World Bank is not exactly a hotbed of environmental activist.

      2. “But notice that the source of that stink, the paper industry, is now mostly gone.”

        The paper industry was responsible for the foam and the stench, but it was the sewage that caused the majority of the damage to the riverine wildlife. Without the CWA, we would have foam-free rivers that didn’t smell bad but which have no life in them.

        1. Actually, it was the bark from the river-drives that was the primary, or first, cause of the oxygen depletion,( what kills a river).

          They were already dead rivers even before they reached the mills.
          But who used our whole river system, first as transportation then as open sewers to lower their corporate costs ?

      3. Environmental regulation had nothing to do with paper mill closings.

        The lack of investments into new paper making technology and the high price of oil were the primary causes of mill closures in Maine.

        That and the fact the IP can grow eucalyptus trees faster in Brazil than it can grow spruce trees in Northern Maine….

        The mills where investments were made in new technology, energy efficiency and fuel switching (including biomass) are the ones that survived.

        Please try to keep up.

        Yessah

      4. who bought the paper companies?? Georgia pacific . Who owns geprgia pacific? Someone haul out Beck ‘s chalk board and help this guy “make the connection”.. Koch industry make the chemicals for the paper industries. that polluted our air and waters and gave us once of ( if not THE) the highest cancer rates in the nation.

      5. I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make.

        Are you saying that the “paper industry is now mostly gone,” BECAUSE we cleaned the rivers?

        You seem to be implying that the restoration of rivers like the Penobscot is the reason for the disappearing paper industry.

        Do you think it is impossible to have a robust paper industry AND clean water?

        Do you think it would have been better PUBLIC POLICY to allow the rivers to remain polluted?

        Please, what are you trying to say, specifically, with your statement?

        1. “Do you think it is impossible to have a robust paper industry AND clean water?”

          Well, we don’t have both, so maybe it is. Can you point to someplace where it’s been done? And please note that ‘robust’ is what Maine had forty years ago, not two guys laying up art paper in a loft in Portland.

          1. Maine’s output (in tons) is higher than it was 40 years ago. The problem is it takes fewer machines and people to do it. And the mills that did not invest in more efficient equipment are closed.

      6. Most of “that stink” was the raw sewage that flowed in most rivers in Maine before The Clean Water Act.

    2. Correction – that would be Senator Ed Muskie.

      Who grew up along the polluted Androscoggin in the mill town of Rumford.

      1. It’s hard to find politicians who have the integrity that Muskie had, and our country is the poorer for it.

    3. And you would trust a group that gets its money from the govt or people who will benefit from green energy, (can you say Angus King?) coming out in favor of green energy? Do you think they will give you that energy for free? Millions of dollars to influence voters, you had better check the coffers of the Maine Democrat Party and their outside funding to see who got bought, can you say Sussman http://www.pressherald.com/news/sussman-top-donor-in-maine-politics_2011-01-02.html. They are all the same

      1. Why weren’t Heartland, ALEC and the Koch boys protesting the cost to taxpayers when the US imported most of its oil and had to spend $ billions for the US military to maintain access to Middle East oil fields?

    4. REally? Mainers are not influenced by the millions of dollars spent to buy votes? Evidently this was not true in the last election. Question one was almost 5 mill. of primarily out of state money. Angus King had plenty of out of state money to back him. Chellie Pingree as well. Mainers are very easily influenced by out of state money and commercials, they obviously watch a great deal of TV.

        1. So your best point is that it is wrong for your opposition to do what you post implies is okay for those that you support politically ?

          Did I miss anything ?

    5. Imagine, a group that gets most of its money from renewable energy promoters and companies comes
      out for renewable energy sources. Imagine, an ultra left wing
      organization using fear and distortions to influence voters to back
      their hidden agenda.

    6. Imagine, special interests like the wind and solar power industries want to protect their legislated gifts, with no regard for the cost to the little guy – the consumer!
      These mandates are a tax on the poor.
      And they will have little or no impact on climate change.
      All they are is a crony-capitalist gift to favored industries.
      Let them compete straight-up: end all corporate welfare, including favors in the energy sector.

  4. I understand the GOP are science deniers, but the libertarians, too?

    Every once in awhile I reconsider my Democratic loyalties. Not after reading this article.

    Personally, I think a brain dead GOP is bad for the left, since it leaves progressives basically unchallenged. Nothing wrong with honing your message via an actual intelligent exchange. Hard to have a rationale discussion with folks who deny science.

    and…EVEN IF there were no climate change, renewable energy makes us less foreign oil dependent. Renewable energy just makes sense.

    What’s the problem?

    1. Calling these people “climate skeptics,” as the article does, is being far too kind. They are science deniers and fact deniers of the worst sort. Their denial has brought them material gains and has placed the rest of the world in peril.

      Rising sea levels are fact. Rising sea temperatures are fact.

      History will view those who go to great lengths to dispute these facts as traitors and fools. Benedict Arnold, in comparison, will look like a boy scout.

        1. ” from acknowledging climate change to this radical denial mentality?” it was a proactive planned PR campaign , funded by the koch boys and other industry giants who want to continue to make bucks and fear their product might be ‘regulated’ if found culpable. and complicit.

          Gee where the heck did Palin come from ?? She was delivered to McCain on a silver platter, for her love of oil.as the oil companies sweet heart . But then she made that faux pas ” I don’t know what causes climate change BUT I see it’s impact as the rising ocean errode the Alaskan coast.” ..

        2. Well worth watching. This piece also touches on “scientists” like Fred Singer, who are paid to deny climate science now, and many of the same names were paid to deny the harm of second hand smoke, acid rain, ozone depletion, and even the original debate on the effects of smoking back in the 1960’s. Heartland has been tied to many of those arguments.

          1. Fred Singer is an embarrassment to the scientific community.

            His letters in Science and Nature are truly pathetic and at odds with the papers published in those journals.

            You get what you pay for….

            Yessah

    2. The Koch brothers are Libertarians.. and have led (and funded) it’s revival for personal gain and benefit.

      .It really a riot that the party who says they embrace free. market and free enterprise , want to interfere with the fundamental concepts that actually make it work— like free competition.

      The Koch boys don’t want anything intrerfering with or comopeting with their oil. and chemical industry monopoly. and empire. I guess $50 BILLION a year in each of their pockets, just is not quite enough.

      What do you think all this anti “green ‘ stuff is all about?? Merely trying to give the competition a bad name.— industry and political “dirty tricks”.

    3. I’m a libertarian. It’s pretty obvious that the climate is changing, as it always has. I find it hard to believe that human activity doesn’t have some impact on our climate, although I think it’s difficult to prove how much. This planet is pretty forgiving, but we need to be good stewards. Hopefully, technology will advance to the point that safe, clean, renewable energy will supply most of our needs.

    4. I built solar hot water heaters and put them on my house. As I write I’m sitting in my solar radiant heated office/cellar that I drive up to over 75 degrees most every day with the free rays from the sun. If an old man can do it, you can, too.

      And some friends put photo-voltaic cells on my building.

      Hooking up these gadgets has nothing to do with politics or greenie pinko-commie leanings.

      It has to do with saving money.

      Greed.

      Period.

      The people who tell you that getting hot water and electricity from the sun for your very own home in Maine is not economically feasible don’t know what they’re talking about. All they know is what the oil companies tell them on TV and in the newspapers. It’s a political thing, like not believing that the tides they have been a-rising for thousands of years. And that man-made pollution is simply speeding up that inevitable age-old process.

      Doubting Thomas, come and take a look at my before and after electric light bills. Every time corporate America raises the cost of oil or electricity it means that my investment is paying me back quicker.

      The humble Farmer

    1. yes climate has been changing since the beginning of time. No one is denying climate changes. The reason it is changing and how much control we have over it is completely unknown.

          1. Yes we have – and we have had the evidence for human alteration of the global carbon cycle since the 1950’s.

            The 14-C and 13C/12C geochemical signature of CO2 in the atmosphere clearly indicates that the combustion of fossil fuels is the cause of increasing CO2 concentrations since the mid-19th Century

            The biogeochemical evidence clearly indicates that human activity has resulted in the measured increase in atmospheric N2O and CH4.

            The peer reviewed science clearly indicates the the rise in anthropogenic greenhouse gases has measurably altered the Earth’s radiative balance and has trapped increasing amounts of solar energy in the Earth’s climate system.

            The peer reviewed evidence clearly indicates the temperatures of the continents, cryosphere, ocean and the atmosphere are rising.as the result of human alteration of atmospheric chemistry and physics.

            Ocean pH is falling and changes in the distribution of salt and heat in ocean surface waters clearly indicate that these changes are happening now.

            It’s been proven.

            It is a fact.

            There’s a big library at UMO – go see for yourself.

            Yessah

          2. You may not know because you haven’t read the research. Others have read it and understand the relationship between our petroleum based economy and the changes in our climate. I’m not sure where you heard there is a lack of proof. Maybe from someone with a vested interest in the current energy structure? Someone who stands to lose wealth if our energy structure becomes more diverse and decentralized would certainly like everyone to doubt that centralized and petroleum based energy production is a source of climate change..

      1. Not according to about 97% of the worlds climate scientists. Natural climate variability is of course still at play, but we are now seeing changes that can only be explained by human causes. Greenhouse effect is basic physics, the dramatic increase in Co2 is demonstrably tied to humans, and there is almost no chance that humans are not impacting climate to some degree.

        Still unknown is how severe our impacts might be, but so far it looks like we are on track to meet or exceed the upper end of the scenarios illustrated by the IPCC.

    2. and what is so ‘obvious’?

      looking back through geologic history there is a precedent for every single event that is occuring today with regard to climate…..and each occured well before the clever homo sapiens arrived (‘evolved’) with their power-through-control religions and fear mongering mythologies, such as climate change

      to deny climate change is simply to refuse acceptance of what is best described as a modern version of fanatical religous zealotry, intent on using the collective force of government to push its views upon those who do not share a faith in the idol now commonly known as “climate change science”

      the same manner in which the new climate change zealots will attack and disparage my viewpoint (shared with many other’s) in doubting the ‘science’ of human-caused-climate-change (better known as ‘Global Warming’), is the exact same manner in which fundamentalist religous groups attack and disparage those who choose to allow the practice

      1. The paleoclimate data clearly indicate the current rapid rise in greenhouse gases and temperatures is unprecedented.

        This is why the Right Wing Clown Squad has invested so much time and effort attacking Michael Mann’s 1998 “Hockey Stick” paper in Nature.

        Sorry – the Deniers cling to Fairy Tales.

        The Science is clear.

        Try again.

          1. I’m convinced, yes. Surface temps and sea levels are rising.

            If scientific data isn’t sufficient, use your own anecdotal evidence. In my personal experience and opinion, the difference in the severity of winter here in Maine has changed since I was a child (25 years+). Of course we still get snow and spikes of extreme cold, though not nearly as much. Have you had the same experience?

          2. Indeed I have had the same experience. A late neighbor, a retired engineer, had lived on this lake for almost all of his life (a stint in the US Marines). From high-school on he kept a log of ice-in and ice-out each year he was here. Bear in mind this man was a Barry Goldwater Republican, i.e., as right wing conservative as they get. His journals started in the early1950’s and stopped when he passed away 3 years ago. Ice-in is about a month later than it used to be. Ice-out about a month earlier than it was. In one of his last entries he noted “shortest ice season in 60 years”.

      2. Your analogy is defective. Fundamentalist religious groups base their behavior on a subjective belief system based in faith. Climate scientists base their arguments on objective, observable and repeatable evidence. The only fanaticism here is in the absolute refusal of some to consider the objective, observable and repeatable evidence.

  5. Scientists have studied the brain of Albert Einstein searching for clues pertaining to his brilliance. Scientists should also study the brains of people who deny that global warming exists. There are always two sides to a story…

      1. That would include the thousands of scientists, that conducted the research and published thousands of papers that make up the robust and multifaceted body of evidence that human activities are altering the Earth’s climate.

        Ignorance Fail.

        Yessah

      2. Burying your head in the sand has always been the leading choice for developing a broad perspective – by ostriches.

  6. But we can’t stop now, Angus and Al Gore haven’t made enough money? I would equate carbon credits to fat credits. If this was really a concern to the left then they would actually live the lifestyle they want us to live, when that happens then they may have a point.
    I assume all you folks who believe this also are currently living the lifestyle, right? Electric car run by solar power, clothes made from hemp, sewn by hand, raise your own food etc.
    This is nothing more than a way for Govt to control our lives, along with more taxes. How many mountain tops have been destroyed? Electric bill gone down? Angus making more money? Sussmans still flying in their private jet to whatever house they feel like going to? Al Gore still jetting around? They are polluting the planet more than the posters here combined, where is your outrage?

    1. How do you come to the conclusion that wind power pollutes the atmosphere? (Can’t wait to hear this one.)

    2. You don’t have to solve the problem, you just have to say you want to solve the problem and have someone else to blame. We are not to blame. The big oil companies are forcing us to drive gas guzzling cars, live far from our jobs, eat meat, have large homes, and use far more electricity than we need.

      I am not to blame because I say the correct things and buy products that say “green” and those curly light bulbs. I drive a Prius even.

      1. “We are not to blame.”

        No, we are totally to blame. Every single one of us. Even the Prius driver. Unfortunately, it will be your grandchildren (or more likely, given the average age of the typical climate denier, your great-grandchildren) that pay the cost. Someday they will spit on all our graves and call us the Nero Generation.

        1. Even the Prius driver?? Surely they will not spit on my grave, I say the correct things and buy the correct products. I read the approved books and shun the heretics and non-believers.

          What more would they have us do??

          1. Dig a grave and lay down in it? ;)

            Seriously though, green initiatives or not, c02 reducers or not, recyclers or not, the elephant in the room is that there simply are too many mouths to feed on this planet and too many minds to entertain. Even those who take steps to preserve, are far outpaced by the consumers.

            Of course when it comes to consuming, we here in the US are king…though even if we put a big dent in our collective issues, we still have massive population centers that are just starting into their equivalent of our industrial revolutions. India and China most notably, whose populations dwarf ours and will only grow more massive as their quality of life increases.

            I think the great grandchildren that grateful mentions, will be fighting for resources, whether the tide is turned by us or not. It will be an eventful future.

          2. Pretty right-on about the population problem S_S.

            But in our politics-is-everything world, there can be NO serious discussion about over population and what to do about it.

            Because that would lead to the ultimate taboo subject:

            BIRTH CONTROL!!

            A politicians nightmare. Avoid whenever possible.

    3. Ummm…Maine’s Standard Offer electric rates have gone DOWN two years in a row – even as we added hundreds of MW of new wind capacity in Maine.

      Please try to keep up.

      Yessah

      1. The relatively small bit of Maine wind power added to the grid in the last two years has virtually nothing to do with what we’re currently paying for electricity. Besides, much of it has been sold to out-of-state entities in long term contracts (at prices above market). The drop in our rates is due to the low price of natural gas (which supplies the majority of New England’s electricity) and a depressed energy market, in general. With so little Maine wind power connected to the grid, it’s pointless to try to draw a relationship between it and what we’re currently paying for our electricity.

        1. Natural gas prices rise and fall with market demand and at the whim of GOP-enabled speculators.

          Natural gas prices have increased by $1.00+ over last year or so (now $3.93 per tcf).

          Maine’s current 400 MW+ of wind capacity will produce about a million MWh of electricity per year (assuming a 30% average capacity factor).

          That is close to 6% of the state’s total electricity production – and that will rise as more turbines come on-line.

          And unlike natural gas, the fuel cost for wind turbines will remain at zero for the foreseeable future.

          In electricity markets where wind capacity is greater than 10% total grid capacity, wind power displaces electricity produced from natural gas and coal and reduces the cost of electricity.

          Wind power is part of the solution to global warming – wind power opponents are part of the problem.

          Yessah

          1. Natural gas prices rise and fall with demand AND supply. Speculators don’t seem to be driving up the price of natural gas.

            It’s estimated that NG would have to exceed $6 – $8/tcf before wind power could even begin to compete with it – and that’s with a continued, government enforced, artificial market support system for wind power.

            One million MWh is only about 0.7% of New England’s annual electricity consumption. Most Maine wind projects have not achieved a 30% capacity factor for the last four quarters reported. (Under 24% for Maine’s largest wind facility.)

            Maine is not a closed grid system. Wind generators in Maine feed the New England grid. Even if there were enough turbines to produce the equivalent of 100% of Maine’s annual consumption, it would still be under 9% of New England’s annual consumption.

            The fuel cost might remain at zero, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we’d see any benefit from that. Zero fuel cost is a benefit that belongs to the producer, not the consumer – and it certainly isn’t helping wind operators to compete with gas at the moment. Our cost for wind generated electricity will only goes as low as the lowest cost NG generated electricity since gas sets the clearing price.

            ISO New England has stated that wind would displace primarily natural gas and that New England’s remaining coal-fired generators will be replaced most likely by natural gas. Less than 6% of New England’s electricity was generated with coal in 2011. That had nothing to do with wind power. European countries have seen their electricity cost go higher with wind power – there are many, many mainstream articles available to back that up.

            Land-based wind power in Maine is WHAT part of the solution to global warming? Put a numerical value on it, please.

            Desiring an honest assessment of wind power’s (or any other energy source’s) realistic capabilities and impacts doesn’t make one an opponent to it. I believe this is a safer approach than the more obsessive, un-inquisitive one that some proponents have taken.

          2. If you look at energy prices alone, you can easily get the impression that wind power is currently saving ratepayers a lot of money. No doubt that wind power can have a downward pressure on marginal prices. Sometimes, consumers are even paid to take the energy when there is a surplus during times of low demand.

            Energy prices are only a part of the picture though. Wind power operators can only accept lower energy prices in a system where they’re getting money from other sources, which are, of course, ultimately funded by the consumer at some point, e.g. subsidies, RECs, etc.

            I read an article recently that said German ratepayers pay a surcharge for renewable energy of about 0.05 euros/kwh (about 6.5 cents US/kwh). That’s not for energy, that’s in addition to the energy cost.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/world/europe/energy-price-increases-pose-challenge-for-merkel.html
            http://phys.org/news/2012-06-german-minister-electricity-prices.html

            England is apparently proposing to pass more of the cost of renewable development on to their ratepayers, as well.
            http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/22/energy-bills-rise-green-power

            At least Germany hasn’t hidden the cost. Spain’s apparently been accumulating debt to keep renewable prices artificially low. They’re about to have to pay the piper, though – which means consumers’ bills will be rising.
            http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/15/spain-election-energy-idUSL5E7M24AP20111115

            One of the conundrums with intermittent renewables is that so much additional capacity has to be maintained. There always has to be a full complement of conventional generation capacity to keep the lights on when the intermittent sources aren’t available. That’s expensive. Consumers end up having to pay more since a larger stock of capacity has to be kept profitable – whether it’s being used or not – so that it isn’t taken offline.

            As a consumer, though, I’m really pretty ambivalent about the energy costs. I’ve been conscious of my energy consumption for years and I don’t use enough electricity for higher prices to make a difference in my household. I’m willing to pay more for a smart, clean energy that’s deployed wisely. I just want to see honesty about what ALL the costs (not just monetary) are, not just fractions of the costs viewed in isolation.

    4. I think yours is a mostly fair critique. Al Gore and others like him who preach one thing but do another, are massive hypocrites. Our leaders do not lead by example generally. They dictate what we should do and then go on their merry ways, paying off their decadence with “credits”, something the average schlub cannot afford to do.

  7. This a battle between those who promote corporate greed over those who seek to save the environment. The line is clearly drawn and it’s time to choose sides. I urge those who have concerns to become involved and to take action.

    There are a number of reasons to promote renewable energy. One is because it is clean. Another is because it can be produced locally. We send up to five billion dollars out of state annually. If most of that money stayed in state our economy would benefit and our climate would improve.

    1. Would you call Angus and Al Gore part of the corporate greed crowd? Can you tell me anytime in history when there was to climate change? Can you guarantee the climate will improve, if so how will this be accomplished? If you do not like oil do not use it, then the money would stay in state, our economy would benefit….

      1. Really you hold science in such contempt. This isn’t about ideology it’s about life on this planet. You give cover to those spreading lies regarding climate science.

        1. The global warming alarmists refuse to use the one clean, reliable, economical energy source that is readily available to us, hydro. This should tell anyone paying attention that their goal is not clean, cheap energy, but the depopulation of most of Maine. When they start advocating for hydro instead of fairy dust and unicorn farts you’ll know they are actually concerned about the citizens of Maine.

          1. Hydro power from Quebec – that is also investing hundreds of millions of dollars in 3,100 MW of new wind capacity – to produce electricity that they will sell to LePage at higher prices than we currently produce it here in Maine.

            Enjoy yer GOP Fairy Tales.

          2. What is the true cost of electricity produced from fossil fuels? What is the true cost of oil? add war+Sandy+ drought+money being sent out of state

          3. 5.5 cents per kWh for electricity for wind power from Maine’s Rollins project.

            Vermont pays Hydro Quebec 6.9 cents per kWh.

            If the anti-wind folks really want hydro power from Quebec, then they need to support the construction of a massive power line to get it here.

            With all that entails – taking property by eminent domain, clear cutting the corridor, herbicides, etc.

            If it went through Dixfield, the anti-wind folks would be first in line to oppose it…

            “it’s ugly!!!!!”

            “power lines cause health problems !!!!” (they don’t)

            “it’s corporate greed!!!”

            “it costs too much and all the power goes to Boston!!!”

            and blah blah blah…

          4. You are confused – capacity factors and continuity of power production are not the same thing.

            A 100 MW wind farm operating 24/7/365 at 25 MW would have a capacity factor of 25% – even though it produced power all the time.

            In the real world, wind farms produce electricity 70-90% of the time.

            Try again

            Yessah

          5. Getting nuclear back into the discussion is something that should be done. Obviously there are concerns about the byproducts, though as far as Co2 emissions, they are minimal. The technology and safety are better than they’ve ever been…though when it comes to knee jerk reactions, nothing quite does it like nuclear.

          6. three mile island, chernobyl …. and did you know the NRC thought sebego lake would be a great place to bury the nuclear waste??

          7. What were the dates on those? ;)

            The technology and safety has most certainly improved since then. However, the concerns are still very legitimate of course. Which is why I’m not proposing an all out return to nuclear, simply returning it into the national conversation. Diversification, right?

    2. or I suggest the even BETTER alternative that takes profit motive out of BOTH industries—- Conservation of energy –USING less so you are beholden to NO industry..

      Mainers reduced their energy consumption by 50% in 5 years by doing exactly that!!! $4.00 oil is s a great motivator. ENERGY CONSERVATION is what should be getting the “energy “attention… BUT there is no profit to be had in it…. just savings for the consumer

      .Isn’t it odd we don’t ever hear anything about the value and sense of energy conservation?? Mainer reducing their dependence on oil by 50% in 5 years is
      phenominal NEWS and it is evidence of what we can achieve when motivated to do so. THAT is the NEWS that should be being shouted off the roof tops. AND THAT is the PRIMARY energy independence public policy strategy that should be being promoted by our elected leaders !!! BUT there is No profit in it JUST savings for consumers !!!And no campaign contributions in it .

    3. First, I’m with you in any reasonable effort to reduce our fossil fuel consumption or increase our efficiency and conservation. But, I’m a bit uncomfortable with choosing from the existing sides, because the truth is usually someplace between the two, getting trampled in the fray.

      Speaking as an observer, your side might find less resistance from their side if some of your side’s “solutions” had stronger technical support. Generally, the same could be said if you flipped the sides around.

      Wind power is the perfect contemporary example. Your side – and I say that generically – have put enormous amounts of faith in wind power based on imagined outcomes that aren’t supported by demonstrable evidence. It’s value seems greater as a mascot for sustainable energy than as a high value source of sustainable energy.

      I can get on board with efforts to decrease fossil fuel consumption, but I can’t get on board with pursuing improbable – though sexy – solutions that come at high costs, economic and otherwise. I would think that those New Englanders most concerned about decreasing carbon emissions or other air pollutants would be alarmed at the inordinate attention and money were committing to wind power, an energy source that will have little impact on either.

      I suspect some of this stems from the enormity of the problem. Easy solutions don’t exist and people need something to give them hope. Wind turbines are visible, cool, poll high on the pop culture scale, and already have a national marketing campaign behind them – they’re an obvious choice to be a symbol for change. It’s just that the promotional hype doesn’t square up with the actual performance, the costs, or the results.

      By the same token, any side that attempts to downplay the downside of fossil fuels should also be avoided.

      1. In a few words; Continuing to burn fossil fuels is suicide. Wind and solar are much more than a cool symbol. The technologies produce electricity that is clean. Efficiency is still a key part of our energy solutions and the most cost effective. Wind and solar are part of the solution also.

        1. “Continuing to burn fossil fuels is suicide.”

          That’s exactly what I’m talking about. That type of extreme language is one big reason you’ll have trouble gaining support from the other half of the people. Do you have scientific support that we are going to all die as a result of the continued use of fossil fuel? How do we stop the other 95% of the world’s population from burning fossil fuels – especially those who want to enjoy our standard of living?

          “The technologies produce electricity that is clean.”

          Of course they do, no argument from me on that. I hope to be in the market for some solar panels myself before too long. But, how much oil or coal (the biggest polluters by far) consumption is replaced by a typical land-based wind turbine or solar panel in Maine? What is the cost of carbon offsetting with wind and solar in Maine? Is it cost effective? Are there better alternatives?

          “Wind and solar are part of the solution also.”

          Also a broad and vague statement. What part? Place a value on it. A big part? Small part? Tiny part? I only repeat this question, because no one seems to be able to answer it. Should we be writing blank checks on the backs of our state and its people if we don’t even know what we’re realistically going to accomplish, if anything?

          I probably agree with you on more than I disagree. I do believe that we need to decrease our fossil fuel consumption and that renewable energies are an inevitable part of our future – hopefully ones that are more efficacious and cost effective that what we currently have to choose from. But, I think this concept level, breathless emergency approach is counterproductive and risky. You’ll never get the other half to get on board until you can provide some information that gives validity to the assertions.

          Makes for a great discussion over a beer.

  8. The subsidy I’d like to see eliminated is the one enjoyed by multi-national oil companies that have free use of the taxpayer-financed U.S. military to keep their supply lines to the Mideast open.
    I wonder what the pump price would be if Exxon/Mobil had to hire and equip a force of 500,000 from Blackwater in a true private enterprise system.

        1. They are grasping for a scandal. It’s inconceivable to them that a black man, whom they have worked so hard to put at a disadvantage, could rise to the most powerful position in the free world without using some kind of dirty tricks.

      1. You are a good example of not wanting the facts to get in the way of your anti Obama stance.

        The Solyndra subsidies were first proposed by GW Bush in 2005.

        The GOP of course, simply ignores the truth and relies on it’s mouthpiece puppets like Fox, Beck and Limbaugh to perpetuate their lies, fully secure in the knowledge that followers such as yourself will not take the time to ascertain the facts.

        They play right into your already partisan beliefs, and the rank and file Republicans swallow the bait, hook, line and sinker, because it’s what you all WANT to believe.

        An uneducated electorate is this country’s greatest danger.

        Just my opinion.

      2. yeah let’s put that all together —ODD isn’t it that the attacks ads on Angus almost all solely revolved around…. drum roll…. wind!!! Not his record … BUT on WIND —-a potential oil industry competitor.

    1. gee and i;d like us to stop going to war( under false pretenses) to protect that line . so just how did we manage take a left turn into Iraq in our pursuit of the leaders of 911?? ODD Osama wasn’t THERE, never WAS there …but the oil fields were. Anyone remember the American public was sold that the “war’ wouldn’t cost taxpayers a dime .it would be paid for by the oil revenue??so gee what happened.??? They lied?? OH no they wouldn’t do that!!

    1. It’s also about truth. Gore was wealthy long before he began to crusade for a clean environment. The point is we face a climate crises and the fossil fuel industry is placing profits over the well being of the inhabitants of the only planet we have.

      1. Even Algore doesn’t believe that, but he sure has you duped. At one time the spot where I’m sitting was covered with a sheet of ice a mile thick. It melted without any human influence, but now we’re supposed to believe that even thoigh temperature has actually been flat that we need to destroy our economy to appease Gia.

      2. Talk to us about the well-being of earth’s inhabitants after you tell us why we are being sprayed almost daily with chemicals and God knows what else with no response from anyone when we ask why..

  9. Well, “pushtheredbutton” you are right about one thing — it is all about money and whatever money Al Gore has made is a tiny, tiny fraction of the money made by the Koch brothers and their coal companies.

    Heartland Institute is to real science as astrology is to astronomy. This last election we got rid of a lot the ALEC dupes over in Augusta but there are still a bunch there taking ALEC’s orders and money.

  10. Ah, here comes the right wing again.

    Heavily funded by their cronies in the carbon industry, parroting the ridiculous notion that the vast majority of scientists simply have it all wrong, that there is no climate change, that foul air and foul water doesn’t exist, it’s all a conspiracy created by the “enemies” of business. Indeed the right wing solution to foul air is to keep fouling it, indefinitely.

    Don’t bother the polluters and those who support them with scientific fact. Things like facts require too much thought, they interrupt the status quo, and they cost too damn much money.

  11. Notice that the “global warming” crowd has now morphed into the “climate change” gang, since the global warming claim has been shot down, along with the Algorian “hot air” balloon.
    It’s a 130-150 year cycle. The Earth warms then cools then repeats.
    Go ahead, get out your pots and wooden spoons and make lots of noise. It matters not.

    1. It is not a 150 year cycle – there is no evidence for that.

      Furthermore, global warming has not been “shut down” – the published peer reviewed science is clear on that.

      The most recent work indicates that is it proceeding faster than expected and will have a greater impact than previously thought.

      The ocean is acidifying rapidly and sea level is rising.

      Abnormally warm water in the Gulf of Maine this spring caused lobsters to shed early and hurt Maine’s lobster industry.

      A warm winter and record warm March devastated Maine’s maple syrup production and apple crop, and brought smelt fishing on the Kennebec to an early end.

      The US Grain Belt is still in the grip of a vicious drought that was accompanied by a record breaking heat wave.

      A heat wave that spawned a killer Derecho in June.

      The West experienced a record breaking fire season.

      We had Superstorm Sandy in late October.

      Wake up.

      Yessah

      1. Are you foolish enough to believe that this same cycle has not been happening for thousands of years?
        Speaking of foolish, it’s obvious that you and prettyfoolish are from the same star system…and it ain’t the Milky Way!

          1. And your “basis in scientific evidence” supporting your claims are what? YOUR statements? Like your opinion is gospel? Absurd.
            And the evidence is out there, and you know it.
            But then I’m sure the symbols on the cave walls you are interpreting give you solace.
            No doubt, if you and the rest of the “climate change/global warming” gang believe that nonsense, then I’m sure you also believe the world will end on 21 December.
            We won’t miss you.

          2. The IPCC is not the UN – it is the umbrella organization set up by the UN where *real* climate scientists from all over the world (including the US) aggregate, evaluate and summarize all the available peer reviewed science on climate change.

            There is no such thing as a “UN climate scientist”.

            The IPCC deals with real science – your wacko internet websites deal with ignorant hoo-hah.

            Yessah

    2. keep telling your self that .Lord knows the Koch boys have spent plenty of money, buying many “sources” trying to convince you of that. It was money well spent . YOU bought it .

  12. When mr gore left working for the government in 2001,his net worth was $2 million…..fast forward to 2012, approximated net worth $100+ million. Nice performance for 11 years,compared to Koch industries 87 years in business.

        1. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing . You forgot to mention the koch boys net worth for proper perspective..And keep in mind there are other KOCH siblings who also benefit financiaily from koch industry but are not active partners.

          1. I’m familiar with Koch Industries, and their family members.I’m also aware they EMPLOY 60,000 people….how many people are employeed by gore?

    1. ….and compared to the Koch brothers ANNUAL income of $25 BILLION each you really need to put things in total and complete perspective.. to tell the whole truth ….

      1. Flawed again, the combined total net worth of Charles & David Koch is $62 billion,amassed over a period of 87 years.

    2. Prove it and so what. This is about a warming planet and the catastrophic results that await us if we are to dumb to take action.

  13. Anti-science Anti-democracy Anti-reality Anti-American kooks.

    Who funds the Heartland Institute?

    They are anonymous.

    Thank the Goddess that the people of Maine threw the GOP out of the State House and defeated climate ignoramus Charlie Summers this election .

    The Heartland nuts and ALEC kooks now have no voice in the legislature.

    Good riddance.

    Yessah

  14. LOL —climate skeptics = Koch brothers —-Is heartland yet another Koch( or industry) funded “think tank”? BUSTED !!!

    The koch brother don’t want any regulation of their industry products or “toxins’ Whether it be oil or plastics or other chemicals they produce ( bpa? any one? ) They also don”t want any ‘”competition” FOR their products .

    ODD and I thougiht libertarians idolized the free market and the primary premise that makes the freemarket work —– competition and creating a better mouse trap.!!!. Anyone who falls for heart land being anything other then an industrty funded think tank is a total fool .

    PS Maine isn’t the only state legislature that ‘changed hands” and power on Nov 6th.

    Anyone remember the response when Lepge tried to rail road thru ALEC’s — EPA agenda in Maine, included the recently passeed ban on bpa??? Let;s just say , It didn’t turn out well for the Koch boys and their industries..

  15. here are some links if any one is interested :

    On the right side of the first link is most if not all of the Koch brother funded groups including, Naran where are you., . $5 million to the Heritage Centers .

    The second one is about their connectiion to Heartland .

    And the third is the Koch boys on going involvement of denying and co-opting the ‘science” :

    climate deniers/ koch:

    http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/polluterwatch/koch-industries/CASE-STUDY-Koch-Front-Groups-Attack-RGGI–the-Northeast-Regional-Greenhouse-Gas-Initiative/?__utma=1.1018778133.1353860711.1353860711.1353860711.1&__utmb=1.1.10.1353860711&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1353860711.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=%28organic%29|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=%28not%20provided%29&__utmv=-&__utmk=146051252

    here you have the Heartland/ Koch bros ‘connection ‘It took a couple minutes with my search engine to find it :

    http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/polluterwatch/koch-industries/heartland-institute-hi/

    http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/polluterwatch/koch-industries/koch-funding-of-opposition-gro/

    Don’t like these sources There are thousands of other just put “Koch” in your search engine and see where it leads you..

  16. Thought for the day.

    WIND sells to mandated renewable buyers in another area, miles away..

    10 cents per kilowatt hour. WIND signs an agreement stating to produce/sell an “X” amount of energy. If WINDs turbines cannot produce (and they work at about 15% efficiency in Western Maine), they make up the difference by purchasing strips from ISO-NE at around 4.5 cents per KwH. That’s where the true scam comes in. Reselling non-green energy under the guise of wind produced.

    1. Ummm…try 5.5 cents per kWh and capacity factors for Maine wind farms are 27-35%.

      The rest of you comment is nonsense.

      Anti-wind folks would do themselves a favor and post real facts.

      Yessah

        1. Cherry picking nonsense.

          You forgot to tell us about Mar Hill’s 44% capacity factor during the first quarter.

          ….and you forgot to mention that those wind projects produced more than 570,000 MWh of low carbon electricity during the first three quarters.

          Those wind projects alone will produce well over 800,000 MWh of electricity this year.

          Try again.

          Yessah

      1. plantiff. People would crap if they knew that two of our larger wind farms in Maine are buying strips from ISO-NE to meet their sales agreements. 1000 wind turbines will force Maine to build some new natural gas plants to stabilize their delivery. Learn a lesson from Germany, the world leader in solar and wind.

        1. No it won’t – there is no need for any new reserve capacity until wind (or solar) comprises 20 – 30% of grid capacity.

          Try again.

          Yessah

      2. You’re quoting the price for ONE, government mandated, long-term contract that is atypical of others in Maine. That’s a very selective use of data. Also, I presently count 4 Maine wind projects that were below 27% for the last four quarters. You need to heed your own advice about the use of facts.

          1. Info can be found at http://ferc.gov/docs-filing/eqr/data/spreadsheet.asp

            Beaver Ridge 12.6 cents/KWh
            Stetson II 5.5 – 8.0 cents/KWh

            Even at 5.5 cents/KWh, the long term contracts typically pay higher prices than what is being paid simultaneously elsewhere for Maine generated electricity. That could be the case for a long time if natural gas prices stay low for long time, which many are predicting to be the case.

            Are even the highest of these prices an issue in my household? No. I don’t use enough for it to be an issue. If I had to heat with electricity, it might. For an electricity intensive commercial user, it might be an issue.

            If we’re going to compare the costs of wind generated electricity with conventionally generated electricity, then we can’t just look at the energy prices alone. We have to look at everything, including transmission – for all sources. (Perhaps we should also be looking at the capital expenses required to switch our lifestyles to a predominantly electric system (heat, transportation, etc.). That figure alone could be astronomical.

  17. And of course, the climate is not changed at all by that big fireball in the sky which happens to be going through a solar maximum right now or the effects of Orbital forcing. 10,000 years ago there was a mile high glacier covering Maine, back in the 70’s there was talk we were heading into a new ice age and some “experts” wanted to spread soot over the poles to slow down the cooling. While mankind can surely have a minute effect on the climate it is arrogant to assume that we can change the climate to such a degree. Does anyone really think that if we were headed into a new glacial period that we could reverse it by scraping all of the econobox cars and everyone driving big SUV’s?
    The earth has been much colder and much warmer long before we got here, it is nothing but a natural cycle that we have zero control over.

    1. Climate scientists in the 1970’s did not predict we were going into a new ice-age.

      That came from a 1975 Newsweek article written by a non-scientist journalist.

      That deniers still use this nonsense to support their arguments speaks volumes about their grasp of basic climate science.

      Koo-koo is as Koo-koo does.

      Yessah

  18. Ted Kaczynski Is not crazy . He only killed 3 people for what he believed to be the greater good. Look at the rates of drug abuse and mental illness in todays society . Are great presidents kill far more than 3 people for what they believe is the greater good just look at any wars we have had.

      1. Did you read his manifesto? Look at all the problems in society today . Ya life expectancy is longer now but mental illness is much higher . I do know if global warming cause is by fossil fuels , I do not even know if fossil fuels are fossil fuels . Seems funny we find methane gas on Saturns moons . Maybe thier were Dinosaurs up there at one time , Science dose not have all the answers . At least not yet.

        1. “Right about some stuff” and “batcrap out of his frickin’ tree” are not mutually exclusive. Ted K’s approach to dealing with the ills he identified in society is like burning down your house because you’ve decided you don’t like the way the rooms are laid out. Blatant madness without even a vestigial sense of proportion.

          As for the rest of that, methane isn’t inherently a fossil fuel – it’s a much simpler chemical than e.g. petroleum or coal and occurs naturally under a wide range of conditions, including some abiotic ones – so its presence on the moons of gas giants – and indeed, in trace quantities, in the gas giants themselves – isn’t really useful in assessing… whatever it is you’re trying to assess there. It certainly doesn’t demonstrate that fossil fuels were put in the ground by an invisible sky friend for us to find and make use of a few thousand years later., if that’s what you’re getting at.

          1. I am not saying methane of Crude oil is or is not a fossil fuel . Might Abiotic I do not know . I can admit I do not have all the answers . I was not as indoctrinated by education as some people . IE. not educated . When I think of all the things that i did learn in school that “proved”to be untrue now. It makes me wonder what we will find out now that is being taught that is untrue. I do not condone they way the environment is harmed or the possible side affects of global warming . But the real problem is greed and human nature . Till we can do something about that I do not see an end to the possible man made causes being fixed. Take care .

    1. Bobby, Ted really is mentally ill. He may have had a brilliant mind once but something happened and he went off the deep end and hurt people.

      1. Yes he was wrong to go off the “deep end”and hurt people . So was Bush and Obama with thier wars . But in another context that is acceptable.

        1. “But in another context that is acceptable.” (emphasis mine)

          Congratulations – I think you may have this one surrounded.

          1. I see little difference in what Ted did and what we do now . Please tell me why we went to war In Iraq? One thing about Ted is he stood for what he believed in . Even if he may have been wrong. Politicians tell us what ever they think we want to here just to get support for thier causes .

          2. GWBush took this country to war in Iraq mainly because he wanted to ‘get the man who tried to kill his daddy’. And he also thought there were WMD’s that were never found.
            Ted was a misguided soul who never had a chance. He’s where he is and probably fine with it. I’m sure he can write till his hearts content.

        2. First it is not President Obama’s war(s). They are and always will be George W. Bush’s wars and the blood spilled as a result is on his hands.

  19. The propaganda has been in the schools for years now.. my granddaughter is 18 years old now and was taught this crap throughout her K-12 years.. Now when we tell the young that they were lied to for 13/14 years they don’t understand.. Some are starting to realize they have been lied to about many things, and thats the reason they don’t have any respect for Authority anymore… If you can keep your kids out of public schools, do it. because the school system depends on funding from the people who are pushing these lies

    1. You are being lied-to by the GOP, the Koch Brothers, The Heartland Institute, Exxon BP Mobile et al., FAUX News and RW Hate Radio.

      Published peer-reviewed science is not a lie.

      Yessah

      1. Always depends on what you are looking for in the studies.. and what you are paid to do.. I can fund a study that look into how many trees is to many, and get the results I seek.. You on the other hand think that sciencist are ethical.. they are not paid to find the truth, they are paid to look for possibilites.. True science looks for the truth. When they are paid to look for possibilites it makes it easier on them.. So claiming they are facts is delusional

        1. Real science doesn’t work like that.

          US science is funded by the National Science Foundation – a taxpayer funded US federal gov’t agency.

          Only qualified scientists at research institutions (colleges and universities) are permitted to submit grant proposals for research.

          Those proposals undergo rigorous peer review at NSF and up to 90% can be rejected.

          Once the grant is funded, the results are expected to be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

          There is no political agenda in climate science – with the exception of the Bush administration’s ham-handed attempt to squelch all climate science it didn’t like…

          Now you know how it works.

          Yessah

    2. Once agian i’m compelled to post a quote, our public schools at work.

      Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever.
      Vladimir Lenin

    3. Climate change is here and it’s all around us. In this state the winters aren’t as fierce as they once were.
      When I was young the snow was up to the eaves at times and we often dug our way out to the road. The last time the snow reached the eaves on this old house was about 16 yrs ago. The last hardcore frozen winterland was a little longer than that ago.

      Greenland is melting. The permafrost in Alaska is melting and the oceans are indeed rising. It’s hard to deny it any longer. To deny it is futile. It is happening.

      1. Do you know what they are finding in Greenland, Signs of civilizations, Yes before the Ice age people lived and farmed there.. Wow Don’t know the facts do you.. Today we had a windy day yet yesterday it was calm and sunny, tomorrow I’m sure will be different.. climate change is real,

        1. same thing in switzerland,there have recently been found mines abandoned during the bronze/copper age that are now being revealed as the snow and ice melts…

  20. With all that is said for and against industries that may or may not pollute …………… I have never seen a study of the effect of pollutants by dropped or strapped on (by idiots) bombs………………………………maybe it is time that someone did one.

  21. Climate activism is happening around the world. The lies that come from the fossil fuel people are being exposed for what they are. The majority of Americans now want action to reverse the impact of warming,

    I respect science. I know that we need to act. I hope others are ready to mobilize. This is the time to make a stand.

    1. it is not “warming”anymore, it is “change” i like clean air and water as much as the next guy, but it is time to face the fact that environmentalism is the new home of the socialist party

  22. Using the image of Ted Kaczynski to deny global warming? I smell Koch heads. They are the only ones around who are that nasty and deceitful.

  23. To “pushtheredbutton”:

    You wouldn’t know or recognize the truth if it bit you on your way out the door.

    What do you know of “true science”? What is your PhD in? How many years of any science have you studied? Time to enlighten us as to your science qualifications.

    Ethics, what do you know of ethics? Enlighten us.

  24. I’ve read these many ‘comments’ and I became distressed by the tangents that the people who commented went off on. This is NOT a partisan issue. It has nothing to do with Republicans, Democrats. Libertarians or Independents. To engage in insulting comments about our fellow citizens is non-productive and mean-spirited. I often wonder… if people had to comment using their true ID’s…would we see such vitriol? I don’t think so. Anonymity ‘behind a screen’ seems to bring out the worst in people.

    ‘Energy’ is not a partisan issue. Rather, it has to do with science, economics,
    and ethics.

    I am opposed to Maine’s Wind Energy Plan… but I am an environmentally
    conscious person. Most of the citizens I know who are opposed to ‘renewable mandates’ are, too. We should not be marginalized simply because
    we’ve taken the time to research the facts and listen to other perspectives,
    rather than blindly believing the rhetoric provided by the ‘renewables’
    industry. And don’t be fooled… the renewables lobby is every bit as powerful and influential as the fossil fuel lobby. I have learned this, first-hand. They are not the ‘good guys’, focused on saving the planet. They are in this business for the money.
    Period. To believe otherwise shows a very naïve and dangerous perspective.

    Citizens cannot afford to be forced to purchase electricity which is undependable, unable to be stored, incompatible with the ‘grid’, harmful to locals’ health… and very expensive, besides. ‘Renewable’ doesn’t automatically mean ‘sensible’
    or ‘affordable’ or ‘dependable’. If we can leave politics out of the conversation… if we can trust that most of our fellow citizens care about the planet and its future…and if we can learn to separate rhetoric from fact, I am confident that citizens will make common-sense decisions.

    But we must move beyond the polarization which– in reality (and real dollars)– benefits the corporate industry, only…and is detrimental to the typical American citizen. This concerns us all, and it is imperative that we take the time to do independent research on this topic. It’s not a ‘black and white’ (or ‘green’)
    issue.

    Respectfully,

    Karen Pease
    Lexington Township, Maine

    1. Anonymity is needed for many good reasons. One reason is someone may post something they need to share, yet couldn’t for many fears if they had to use their real names.. Anonymity is important for people exposing the truth sometimes.. The rest of your comment is A +1

    2. Karen,

      Agreed no need for rudeness but maybe facts are ok? The Fossil fuel lobby has and spends much more than the renewable energy lobby. Renewable energy produces no carbon emission when producing electricity. The burning of fossil fuels produces carbon which is trapped in the upper atmosphere. Carbon emissions are causing climate change. Climate change presents dangers to a sustainable climate and life on this planet. Have a great day.

      1. CO2 levels in the atmosphere are a lagging indicator of global temperature, not the cause. The levels of CO2 in the atmosphere can be explained as a result of ocean temperature. Cold water absorbs more CO2. Warmer water releases more. It’s a bit more complicated than that in practice but that is the gist of it. Ocean temperature also lags atmospheric temperature and CO2 levels in the atmosphere more closely track ocean temperature.

          1. What a crock – the only “problem” with Shakun et al. is that is blows a big hole in skeptic’s argument about the role of CO2 in climate change.

            None of the links you posted are from peer reviewed science journals.

            None.

            If there was a “problem” with Shakun’s methods and/or conclusions, they would appear as a technical comment in Nature submitted by other climate scientists.

            There is no technical comment regarding Shakun’s paper.

            Try again.

            Psuedoscience means “false science” and that is all deniers have…

            Yessah

    3. A lot of people are fed up with anti-science climate-denier conservatives and hysterical anti-renewable energy types that oppose any solution to global warming.

      There is a whole cottage industry devoted concocting lies, half-truths and wacko conspiracy theories about wind power that have nothing to do with “aesthetics”.

      Global warming is already changing Maine’s environment, economy and food production – and it will only get worse

      You cannot remediate anthropogenic climate change by opposing renewable energy.

      It cannot happen.

      Nossuh.

  25. I think the perfect weather would be 68 to 72 degrees. can anyone out there make that happen for me??
    Well your claims are that we can change the climate, that to me would be the perfect climate..Get on it.

      1. I’ve just had a quick poke around the web, and there is such a body as the Environment Court of New Zealand, but I can find nothing about any general wind moratoria on either their website or the State of Vermont’s. Admittedly, as my interest in these matters extends only so far, I didn’t do a really comprehensive investigation (particularly at the ECNZ – it’s mostly incomprehensible legal documents). I’m not sure which of the many places called New Holland she’s referring to, so I can’t help you there.

  26. It has long amazed me that we can take what is in the bowels of the planet,spread it around the earth and into its atmosphere and think that nothing bad will come of it

  27. These people are the real criminals against the planet and against humanity itself.
    Imagine negatively influencing the quality of life for everybody else just to line your own already overflowing greedy pockets. “Libertarians” are selfish and hypocritical lowbrows with no souls or humanity.

  28. ALEC and the Heartland inst. are a hoot. Again. “ALEC is in no way against alternative energy”. What a bunch of rubes. Follow the money as conservatives so often say.

  29. Is anyone really surprised that they made that billboard? Really? I think that says a lot about the validity of their argument…

  30. VI. CONCLUSIONS

    Wind generation has been actively subsidized for 35 years, first under PURPA and the ETA, both enacted in 1978, and then through the PTC under the 1992 EPAct. After over three decades of increasing subsidies and increasingly stringent environmental mandates for fossil-fuel resources, it is past time for the well-established wind industry to stand on its own two feet. As such, the federal PTC subsidy should be allowed to expire under current law.

    The PTC represents bad energy policy and bad economics for at least three reasons. First and foremost, wind generation’s production pattern not only is volatile and unpredictable, but even more significantly, is “economically backward”: producing the least amount of energy when loads are highest and electricity is most valuable. Second, subsidized wind generation also exacerbates artificially low electric prices, thus imposing economic harm on competitive generators that are needed to maintain system reliability. Third, the inability to forecast actual wind generation accurately increases system reliability costs, which are borne by all customers.

    Given these demonstrated adverse characteristics of wind power, there is no economic or policy justification for its continued subsidization through the PTC.

    Wind generation has been actively subsidized for 35 years, first under PURPA and the ETA, both enacted in 1978, and then through the PTC under the 1992 EPAct. After over three decades of increasing subsidies and increasingly stringent environmental mandates for fossil-fuel resources, it is past time for the well-established wind industry to stand on its own two feet. As such, the federal PTC subsidy should be allowed to expire under current law.

    The PTC represents bad energy policy and bad economics for at least three reasons. First and foremost, wind generation’s production pattern not only is volatile and unpredictable, but even more significantly, is “economically backward”: producing the least amount of energy when loads are highest and electricity is most valuable. Second, subsidized wind generation also exacerbates artificially low electric prices, thus imposing economic harm on competitive generators that are needed to maintain system reliability. Third, the inability to forecast actual wind generation accurately increases system reliability costs, which are borne by all customers.

    Given these demonstrated adverse characteristics of wind power, there is no economic or policy justification for its continued subsidization through the PTC.

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