The east-west highway proposal has generated a lot of responses on the BDN letters page. Unfortunately much the information that has been provided is simply not true. The road may or may not ever be built, but that decision should be based on facts and not scare tactics by those who oppose any kind of economic development for our area.
For instance:
• Eminent domain cannot, and will not, be used to buy land for this road. If owners don’t want to sell, they don’t have to. If the land can’t be purchased from owners willing to sell, the road won’t be built.
• The right of way is not going to be 2,000 feet wide. The Stud Mill Road easement is 2,000 feet, but the Cianbro plan is to use only 500 feet of that.
• Overpasses and underpasses will be built at every road crossing just like every other interstate highway in Maine.
• There are no plans to use the right of way for any other purpose than a toll highway. If another use was proposed in the future, it would need to be approved by the government agency in charge of that use. Permits have to be granted before anything can be built.
• Because there is no eminent domain, the route cannot be determined until the land is under contract. The route will become part of the public record as soon as possible.
We have a north-south highway in Maine: Interstate 95. Should we turn it back into fields and forests? Of course not, as most of the things we need come to us over the interstate and turnpike. We get those things cheaper and fresher because of a good road.
Many of the jobs we have wouldn’t exist if not for our north-south highway connecting us to Canada in the north and the rest of New England in the south. We are affected in a positive way every day by a good north-south transportation system. We don’t even think about it.
People argue that we should have better rail service to avoid building this road. Both state and federal governments have poured tens of millions of dollars into privately owned Maine railroads the last few years, much of it on east-west tracks. There’s not much more we can do.
The trouble is most transportation customers don’t want a whole railcar load of any product. Would you want to invest in a railcar load of lobster? A stronger economy and more freight to move will do more for our rail system than all the subsidizes we can ever provide.
Still others think we should use the money to improve the roads we have before we build anything new. It makes sense until you realize this is going to be a private toll road that doesn’t draw from the limited funds available to fix our current roads. That money can’t be used to repair existing roads. Our roads do need attention, but Maine is about taxed out. A stronger economy is the only real solution for more money to fix roads.
We have 8,829 miles of state highways in Maine, plus thousands of miles of local roads and thousands more miles of private roads. Is an addition 220 miles of private road going to be as negative as we’re being lead to believe? If we have gotten to the point where we can’t build any more roads in Maine, what does that say about our ability to build any of the things we need to make our lives better?
There are economic benefits from this road, but it won’t cure every ill our economy is suffering by itself. We need fewer taxes on job creators, lower electric rates and a permitting process that keeps us safe but doesn’t stop development. They are all pieces of a much larger picture that will begin to undo the decline we’ve seen this last generation.
We have been talking about an east-west highway for decades. It has always been seen before as a positive step for our economy that we’d like to take but couldn’t afford. We may be able to get it done this time. Let’s take a good look before we make our decision and base that decision on facts, not rumors and misinformation. We may never get another chance.
Sen. Doug Thomas represents Maine Senate District 27 and serves on the Transportation committee.
Same old same old..nothing has changed the basic facts and issues..whether public or private, with or without eminent domain, as all expert studies have said, including the Can Am report Vigue so often mis quotes and mis represents..a four lane toll way from Calais to Coburn Gore has minimal benefit for Maine and possible harm from diversion affecting route 1.
Further as noted at some length in the Can Am, report dependence on trucking is part of the problem not a key part of any solution. Trucking adds as much as 46% to the costs of goods leaving the Maritimes and the northeast..saving an hour isn’t going to change that.
It’s time for the asphalt lobby to stop traipsing around Maine accompanied by the armed Plum Creek security squadron,(not just the same company, Merrill, bu the exact same security detail , the same guards) now hired by Vigue, trying to silence and exclude concerned and well informed citizens with this absurdly unfactual dog and pony show.
Echo Easement LLC will have to find somewhere else to earn $353 million on the Stud Mill Rd Easement, taxed at timberland rates. Plum Creek and Kennebec West Forest LLC, major landholders under 80% of what Vigue has outlined as the route will have to find some other way to inflate earning on their Maine timberland. In fact, these interests are the major reason eminent domain won’t be used..they definitely don’t want that..they would only get appraised value at timberland acreage prices.
Citizens, don’t even bother to attend this silly power point presentation. Join us and focus on repealing the highway privatization statute ( potentially applicable to every road and bridge in Maine, including the Maine Turnpike), which (thank you Mr. Douglas) Cianbro and the asphalt lobby wrote for themselves and got passed in 2010 with no public notice and no public hearings. Join us in holding MDOT to account for what we want and don’t want with any improvements to E/W transportation.
Thank you for expressing so passionately exactly what I – and thousands of other Mainers – believe.
I am not an “environmentalist”, but I am a conservative in the best sense of the word. My form of conservatism advocates neither the extinguishing of economic prosperity in the north NOR the covering of Maine under an asphalt jungle. Preserving its current natural resources and advertising and exporting its bounty is a better bet for the region’s prosperity than building a superhighway 30 years after the rest of the country realized how stupid such a project is.
Northern Maine has a bright future without an E-W highway. With or without LCL shipments of lobsters!
Waldoco1,
Your brand of conservatism I think is the same thing as “common sense”, “Common wisdom” and that is exactly the quest here on this asphalt lobby project that refuses to die.
There is a growing and very effective citizens move against privatized highways nation wide. Here is a wonderful website where people can learn about what the privatization experience has brought elsewhere.:
http://www.corridorwatch.org/ttc/index.htm
Mainers will be astonished I think to notice that the TransTexas Corrdior, defeated by this group, and promoted by developer/operator Maquarie, an australian group, is so identical in every respect to this “novel idea”, this “game changing” idea ( ex MDOT Commissioner David Cole’s words), it is impossible to believe that Macquarie isn’t right in the middle of this somehpw or at least that Vigue was inspired by Governor Perry’s Trans Texas Corridor and by Macquarie.
The E/W Corridor now touted by Vigue is a 100% copy cat of the Trans Texas Corirdor.
For the same reasons it failed to be come realoty in Texas, it will fail to become reality in Maine.
Citizens are just too smart for the drivel the E/W Highway Association and the Asphalt Lobby are pedaling.
Lindsay, before you comment on the supposed lack of intelligence of people who would support the EW Highway concept, you should take heed of the fact that the clear majority of people who attended the Dover Foxcroft meeting were not the orange clad opponents, and in fact, the opponents were asked by their fellow citizens to keep quiet so that people who wanted to hear the details of the proposal could do so without the rude interruptions of opponents.
“covering of Maine under an asphalt jungle…. ”
With more than 33,414 square miles of territory within Maine’s borders, I would suggest that your comment is at least a slight exaggeration.
“Northern Maine has a bright future without an E-W highway.”
Waldoco1, many parts of northern Maine have death rates that exceed the birth rate due to the lack of a decent economy. How does that add up to a bright future?
saving an hour isn’t going to change that. What about the saving of fuel that the truckers will save fuel an time in the long run if the person makes say 2 or 3 trips a week . Don’t for get thats an hr going from one side of the state to the other an they save another hr going back so that 2 hrs. a trip they are saving plus fuel
Hi Wollydevil,
Canada could shave that same hour or so off the trip themselves on their own roadways for a lot less that the $2 billion this toll way would costs but chose not to do that.
Since the Canadian Truckers, according to Vigue’s own presentations, especially his “strictly confidential” report with Louis Berger, will be mostly financed by the tolls Canadian Truckrs would pay..what does this tell you about the wisdom of on trucking?.
What does this tell you about the emphasis on trucking for economic development in the Maritimes?
The only truth here is, Wolly, a group of die hard asphalt lobbyists who used to make a huge fortune building roads have no roads to build any more..Americas’ interstate system is complete, finished..now it is matter of maintenance and even those dollars are tight and scarce.
Maine has a hugely log list of deteriorating roads already serving the businesses and workers and communities of Maine that desperately need our attention and care.
But these folk who got rich, Wolly, building new highways just can’t get over the fact that new highway construction is pretty much finished.
That’s allt they know how to do. That’s what they have always done. They want it to continue. To them it doesn’t matter whether the road is needed or useful to Maine or will create Maine jobs..they say all those benefits will be there because hey want people to agree to build this foolish road but all the leading experts have said that their claims for these benefits are false, Wolly.
Wolly, don’t you think that this Highway is sort of like trying to sell the public on a new landline based telephone infrastructure in an age of cellular?
Doesn’t it raise questions for you Wolly that if even the Canadians aren’t willing to make a much smaller investment to shave off that hour or so they have chosen not to do so?
Ok so you say use the roads we have now ? ok if you do than this is what they should do widen out certon roads an have No stop signs No red lights No cross walks
hey Wolly..thanks for your reply..and what you are saying is exactly what all the experts said Wolly when they were requested by the legislature to study this in 1999. And here is what the Governor ( then Angus King) had to say about it in this very newspaper:
http://www.maine.gov/mdot/1999eastwesthwystudy/govspeech.htm
Notice as with all the expert studies since the emphasis is on improved rail connections and exactly as you say for the road Wolly..widening, repaving, capable of supporting higher speed limits etc. That is exactly what the experts proppsed for route 2 and 9 and exactly what Angus King endorsed.
See Wolly..expertise and common sense always intersect at a point very very close to the center of the truth.
The experts arrived at their conclusions with numbers, math, analysis, mathematical models etc…you arrived at the same place from common sense..so the truth must be somewhere very close to that intersection Wolly.
We could have hired you instead of spending all those tax payer dollars and now again we are spending $300k in tax payer dollars to re affirm what hasn’t changed at all..I would rather you had had our $300k Wolly but then you need all those titles and corporate capability etc. etc. etc. to be listened to and taken seriously..I guess that’s what we pay the $300k for.
But for me, Wolly, your common sense, you intuition is good enough.
“expertise and common sense always intersect at a point very very close to the center of the truth.”
The supporters of the EW Highway have their experts also, and supporters among townspeople who feel that the idea is common sense.
“…now it is matter of maintenance and even those dollars are tight and scarce.”
This is a road that would be built with private investment, not by scarce taxpayer dollars.
“Maine has a hugely log list of deteriorating roads already serving the businesses and workers and communities of Maine that desperately need our attention and care.”
Nobody is stopping you from taking care of pre-existing roads. But since you oppose the use of private investment for road work, how do you propose to take care of our deteriorating roads? With billions of tax dollars, perhaps? Good luck.
“That’s allt they know how to do.”
Can you prove this impossible claim?
“but all the leading experts have said that their claims for these benefits are false”
What makes your leading experts so infallible? Let’s not forget that they were hired by the same government that you criticize for incompetence and corruption.
“…even the Canadians aren’t willing to make a much smaller investment”
But when the railroads haven’t even made the much smaller investment in their track (that supposedly would make the rail industry your undisputed winner over trucking in the competition for freight contracts) you draw no conclusions about the actual viability of rail.
Lindsey, where is your documentation that Vigue has hired a security detail of guards? Sounds to me like you are making up your “facts” again.
“Trucking adds as much as 46% to the costs of goods leaving the Maritimes and the northeast…” Compared to what? Goods shipped by train? Goods that are picked up by travelers at tourist havens?
“…trying to silence and exclude concerned and well informed citizens with this absurdly unfactual dog and pony show.” How is answering two hours worth of questions at a live forum excluding and silencing concerned citizens?
“…will have to find some other way to inflate earning on their Maine timberland.” Why do you care what a landowner earns on their own land? Why should I care how you earn money with your own properties?
“…the major reason eminent domain won’t be used..they definitely don’t want that..” Thank you for finally agreeing with Senator Thomas on the idea that eminent domain won’t be used.
“…don’t even bother to attend this silly power point presentation.” And that is exactly what you did. You didn’t even bother to attend Vigue’s presentation in Dover Foxcroft, yet you speak as though you are some sort of expert on the proposal.
Hi Brandon, Where have you been..well documented all over many newspapers.
(1) Vigue has publicly acknowledged on many many occasions that he has hired body gurads “beacuse of threats”
(2) many many many folk at the various Vigue events, including the Maria Fuentes do at the Senator had direct encounters with Mr. Vigue’s body guards; including Lance Tapley, Phoenix reporter who wrote about it in the Phoenix
(3) According to several folk who were involved in protests at Plum Creek, and who were at protests involving very Vigue events, the men on Mr. Vigue’s security detail are the same men who were on the Plum Creek detail. The security detail is from Merrill ( I think that is the company name)..they do more than body guard work, sources say and their web site says….they actually investigate and make reports on the opposition, undertake surveillance etc. ( not that I know whether Mr. Vigue has included that in their body guard duty
Well documented and much written about..with some concern Brandon.
What makes you think Lance Tapley is not mistaken about his observations or perhaps skewed by the ideology that permeates the Phoenix?
You talk about Vigue hiring a squadron of body guards. I have never read any such thing, and I am simply asking for your sources. Can you provide them?
“The security detail is from Merrill ( I think that is the company name)”…. So now you admit that you are not so clear on the facts as your bold statements earlier would have suggested. And how do you know the Plum Creek protesters are credible witnesses?
With all due respect, Lindsay, the evidence suggests that much of your concern is manufactured.
Brandon,
Here is just one of many many many references where Vigue acknowledges his seceurity detail:
http://www.pressherald.com/news/as-vigue-stumps-for-highway-project-foes-follow_2012-05-27.html
I have previusly been patiently involved with you before Brandon on the E/W Highway.answering your questions and providing you with documentation which you choose not to read or accept because it conflicts with your deeply held opinions. You are just spamming me and this conversation. Just making a nusiance and a pest of yourself so this will be my absolute last reply to you Brandon.
Ah…. I see. Any attempt to examine your deeply held opinions more closely will be met with silence and evasion. Even Vigue, who you chastise for “silencing and excluding” opponents, spent over two hours answering written questions from hostile anti-highway folks at the DF meeting which you chose not to attend.
By the way, how do you know that the threats against Vigue that are cited in your article are not worthy of being taken seriously? How do you know that the newspaper writer quoted Vigue accurately about all those “bodyguards?” And you still have not provided credible documentation of a battalion of bodyguards from “Merrill” and “Plum Creek” etc, to back up your earlier declarations of fact.
….
Ok that sounds good but the road should have no stop signs or stop lights an the roads would half to be widen no matter what there would be no cross walks . you come out of your house an the road mite be right at your door step .
why do you need a 2000 foot easement when you only need 500 feet. ???
Old town landfill was never ever going public and was only for the mill to use…..
Don’t trust these people one bit.
Peter you should retire. how much is more than enough for you?
They don’t need or want a 2000 foot easement. Can you not read?
Need or want are not the issue. The 2000 ft easement is in the Act already so it’s a done deal. But what it does do is provide, when and it’s already being seen and planned for pipeline, a legally existing easement that the pipeline owner’, and operator’s who are not always 1 and the same, can claim is already there and has been already ceded for commercial and industrial use. That’s the reason for the 2000 ft easement, to provide a pre-existing right of way that no one can stop because it was ceded in the Act to begin with. Look down the road and think like a SOB. Reality has a way, if you have the gut’s to take it on, of showing us all the truth, not what some want to sell us as truth. Gulf 1 and George’s chemical weapons fiasco, that are now putting hundreds of Gulf 1 vet’s in VA hospital’s for exposure, are proof of the Art of Selling The Lie as being used as a routine practice by both private sector and the gov’t when they want to sell the public a lie that benefit’s only the few.
The same can be said of the recent land deed’s Transfer of Title’s. Surveyor’s and Court Record’s are both black and white, leaving no ‘gray area’ for the truth to hide in and are there for all to see. Knowing what you’re looking at is the trick. That and following the corporate paper trail. But then again Maine has the Secretary of State’s Office of Corporations and Board’s records open to full public access and their Annual Report’s, which, by the way are all due in this month. Timing, is a real friend, isin’t it ?
“Surveyor’s and Court Record’s are both black and white, leaving no ‘gray area’ for the truth to hide in and are there for all to see. Knowing what you’re looking at is the trick.”
Since you have conducted the thorough investigation of the records, perhaps you can spell out for us in clear and verifiable terms the smoking guns that you have found.
RE: 2000′
Dear Footinyourbackside..enjoying your insightful posts here..thank you.
2000′ is the width of the easement corridor retained by International Paper when they dld off heir Maine Holding sin 2004 to Kennebec West Forest LLC. They created a subsidiary, Echo Easement Corridor LLC , on which the Stud Mill Rd is cenetered and on which moth the Maitimes and Northeast gas piepline and ta high power electric transmission line are located. Echo has acknowledge in testimony that it stands to gain $353 million if the E/W highway uses that corridor..quite huge return on land taxed as timberland, eh?
In many of his earlier public presentations Vigue referenced his expectation that the 200o’ would apply the entire length of his corridor , all 200 miles from Calais to Coburn Gore. Someone, I suspect MDOT, must have put him straight on that because he is now no longer referring to 2000′ the entire length.
Mr. Douglas and other Vigue asphalt lobby kool aid drinkers here have suggested that “we the epople” started this rumor about the 2000′ corrdior..It was s a very cursory review of past BDN articles and letters will show, Vigue hiself who raised this publicly and has been forced to back off from.
There have clearly been negotiations between Vigue and Echo Easeement on the Stud Mill Rd Easement as in court papers Echo Easement LLC testified that they stood to gain $353 million .
With every statement he makes in his continued and unrelenting effort to push this asphalt lobby project Mr. Douglas shows his true colors, sets off red alarms on the truth meter, and digs a deeper and deeper hole in which is credibility is inextricably mired.
Shame on you Mr. Douglas. I call for your resignation from the Transportation Committee..your removal.
Why are you so concerned about how much money landowners stand to earn from the use of their own land? I don’t have a right to stand in the way of you making as much money as possible off the willing and legal use of your property — why would you claim to have that right over other landowners?
If the route is Bangor to Carabassett Valley, you have my vote…
Doug Thomas wrote the article and serves on the transportation department.. Doug show us your financials
There is no benefit of this road to Maine unless 1 of the Canadian vehicles has a flat on their way from Canada to Canada! This is as much of a loser as piping that nasty sand oil across Maine. He says there are benefits to Maine, but doesn’t say what they are! Another”Trust me, Farmer, I was just helping that sheep across the fence”.
The regular crew of naysayers are at it again in relation to this well written and informative piece about the E/W highway.
I sometimes wonder if the real reason many of the companies that left the US for China is because of all this negativism and “hate of corporations” that seems to be the norm in this country, and especially this state.
All fostered and encouraged by the environmental industry.
I don’t hate corporations, I just know when I’m being asked to drink the kool-aid… I don’t like kool-aid. This country is in a mess because of corporations scr-wing the general public.. I will not consent to be ripped off by peter and his investers… you on the other hand are part of the problem…. corporations did their dirty deeds with the consent of the governered up until now. the people shall not be decieved anymore. I’m a teaparty person who doesn’t like this.
“This country is in a mess because of corporations scr-wing the general public..”
The computer you are using to express your ideas was built by a corporation. The electricity that runs your computer was produced and delivered by a corporation. The food you eat is grown, packaged and delivered to your table by corporations. Your car (which you drive on thousands of miles of corporate-built roads) was designed, tested and assembled by a corporation. Your clothing was made and distributed by corporations. Corporations employ millions of your fellow citizens, and provide health care for them. Corporations produce snowmobiles, sailboats, hunting rifles, cribs for your babies, eyeglasses for your grandmother. If you think corporations are only out to do their “dirty deeds” you are truly deceived, but not necessarily by corporations.
This editorial makes it clear what is involved: 500 ft right of way, not the 2000 that has been mistakenly quoted.
As Sen. Thomas said, no eminent domain taking of property. That is why no definite route has been determined.
If the ignorance displayed in the preceding comments here is any indication of the voting mentality in Maine I fear for the future of our state.
so you don’t believe the people making comments, Yet you believe what Thomas said. I think you have selective beliefs. so I will disreguard what you say, and if you are an indication of the voting mentality in Maine I fear for the future of our state.
You see if I want to build a for profit private road through the State I would first pick my allies who had power and somehow convince ($$$) them that my project was a good idea. I would go to the county commissioners and town fathers and state government officals and convince them($$$$).
I also know exemptions to the laws are always granted to corporations by these same people. Divide and conqer… Do you know what the primary job (fuction) of the EPA and DEP is??? It’s to license polluters…. Maine has been sold down the tubes to corporations on the backs of the taxpayers. and enough is enough.
FYI: There are thousands of Mainers whose backs are not earning a paycheck and are not paying taxes because they don’t have jobs. What is your solution to the unemployment problem?
Sue, Thomas can make all the statements he wants but the Highway Act is the law and you can bet dollars to donuts that Vigue is going to ‘suddenly’ use it, despite all of the press releases and Op-Ed pieces that Thomas writes, more so when push comes to shove. And with the easement set at 2000 ft, again, Thomas can make all the Op-Ed’s he wants but the easement is set in the Act. How much of that easement is used is the ‘on the spot’ issue that’s a long way off. What Thomas is not saying anything about is the fact that this highway, for the moment, is being planned for no one’s benefit but the Canadian trucking and mining companies. And please, this crap about the route not being already planned is nonsense otherwise how would Cianbro be able to financially plan out their cost’s, now, without having some idea as to the land aquisition costs and construction cost’s per mile that this road is going to generate ?
No, this road is nothing more than a Pete Vigue Memorial Highway that’s being driven by both his ego and whatever ‘arrangement’ he has with Irving regarding the use of the Highway in Irving’s mining plans at Bald Mountain and Irving’s Canadian navy shipbuilding contract’s and Irving’s need to ship those ship components to Halifax or Sidney from the steel mills in the Sudbury area. And who does Thomas think he’s fooling about this interchange issue. The road is going to be built as a NON-STOP route from Coburn to Calais for the sole use of the Canadian truck’s, that run far heavier loads and speed’s than trucker’s do here. That means that the Canadian truck’s won’t be able to pull off this highway for service since to do so will instantly get them a weight load violation and the truck impounded until it’s corrected. Does anyone seriously think that Cianbro is gonna be paying those type fine’s ? And the proof of that is the fact that if anyone wants to go looking, have a gander at the Irving service station’s in St Stephen’s and Sherbrooke and D-ville. Do you really think that Irving’s up-grading those station’s and facillities just for good look’s ? I may have fallen off the potato truck but not this morning !
“you can bet dollars to donuts that Vigue is going to ‘suddenly’ use it”
What proof do you have for this statement? How do you know that Vigue and Thomas are not just honorable citizens hoping to do the right thing for the state? What makes you more honorable than either of them that allows you to make your morally superior claims?
“road is going to be built as a NON-STOP route from Coburn to Calais for the sole use of the Canadian truck’s”
Your statement doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense. Why would investors spend two billion dollars to build a road and then limit the amount of return they can get on their risky investment by limiting the road’s users?
Sue you have it right here. These people are drunk with their ignorance. These are the same people that would say it is incumbent on business to create jobs for them and when the probability occurs they fight it tooth and nail.
This what our republic has become with demagoguery and ignorance ruling the day.
Actually Cheesecake, I and all the other anti Highway posters here, anti Douglas posters have spent months and months gathering the actual facts, the actual truth, reading all the expert studies on the highway, studying the experience of highway privatization nationally, discovering the secret highway privatization statute Cianbro and the asphalt lobby wrote itself and got passed with Douglas’ help ( and Matt Dimon’s) in 2010 with no public notce and no public input. We have all consistently posted links to these facts so others can see the truth for themselves.
We have taped and video’d and documented Vigue’s many different versions on eminent domain, use of the privatization statute, number of exits, his intentions as sponsor. He is clearly not a purveyor of truth.
Cheesecake, so much of this material on the truth of the E/W Highway is available at MDOT’s own web site where all the past expert studies are posted. I invite you not to take our word for it. Go read them yourself and compare what Vigue is pedaling as “truth” to what experts have said..and will clearly say again. Also many links at Defending Water For Life’s website.
Maybe I can dispute you because, from time to time, I actually speak to the people involved.
Cheesecake..you mean you are in touch with the folk who constitute the asphalt lobby? Vigue, Fuentes,Maine Contractors Association, and their two ex-MDOT Commissioners John Melrose and David Cole?
Can you point to one fact presented in any post I have made here on this article or on any other post I have ever made on the E/W highway that is not absolutely factual or well supported by existing documentation?
Have you done any research on your own to re verify facts that have been presented here that don’t jibe with Vigue’s claims?
Have you heard anything directly from the horse’s mouth that he has not said in public that puts the highway in a different light?
If they were also either truthful about the expert studies..Mr Douglas is certainly aware of and has read what we tax payers have paid for several times over, or if they actually looked beyond their desparate hunger for more highway construction no matter it cost Maine , if they had a little more respect for “we the people”, Maine those folk would be worth speaking and listening to.
For anyone looking for the truth of what this highway means for Maine, the asphalt lobby and Mr. Vigue and Mr. Douglas are the last places on earth to go.
“Can you point to one fact presented in any post I have made here on this article or on any other post I have ever made on the E/W highway that is not absolutely factual or well supported by existing documentation?”
I have cited numerous examples of false, doubtful or unsubstantiated statements in this thread.
By the way, what is your plan to put unemployed Mainers to work, Lindsay?
It might be helpful, Ms. Bowker, if you would post a link to the pertinent MDOT studies again.
There are no pertinent studies. They’re all at least 13 years old and based on public investment.
Hi HS Sportsnut..Yes you are right that the last actual studies of the Vigue route were in 1999 and all the reports and conclusions are up and available at MDOTs E/W Highway page at their web site. The most important conclusions of the two separate studies were:
(1) that the a limited access road from Calais to Coburn Gore had minimal benefit for Maine and possible harm from diversion of traffic affecting Rte 1.
(2)that the potential traffic volumes and maximum possible income from tolls just didn’t work to amortize the cost of building ( then estimated at only $1.1 billion) That would be even worse for private investment as their cost of capital is higher .
These two basic findings will not change. Most importantly the minimum benefit to Maine finding will not change and that is the most important aspect of this..what is really in this for Maine?
Wilbur & Associates who did the feasibility part of the 1999 study for MDOT also wrote the 2010 Can Am study.
http://www.canamconnections.com/
This study takes a broader look at what transportation initiatives might most help the Northeast. Mr.Vigue’s privately financed rd is mentioned in the study but is not held up or refferred to as a significant component of how the NE could most benefit from changes in transportation Infrastructure.
They do reference a northern E/W highway but it id not Mr. Vigue’s Highway..it is a federal priority corridor that goes from Bangor not to Coburn Gore but across northern NH and Vermont. Mr. Vigue’s H’Way was also not included in top priority projects listed in the 2010 private bill authorizing private public partnerships .
The issue here is that without any support among the nation’s leading transportation experts, Mr. Vigue is asking us to accept his judgments in place of theirs and worse he misquotes and misuses the Can Am report in his public dog and pony show on the highway.
The report is a little bit technical..I’ve been through it three times already and can’t say I have mastered it but it is certainly worth reading through and it absolutely does not support Mr. Vigue’s claim that his H’Way is the answer to the longstanding decline of northern Maine.
Interesting that Mr. Vigue’s partner, Louis Berger is not a transportation expert but rather a firm that specializes in navigating highly polarized projects..i.e. how to manipulate the public not negotiate and collaborate in good faith with stakeholders.
So far we who are deeply interested in the E/W highway have not been afforded any open public forum with MDOT . This blog is our only forum and certainly not a place where we can visit together what the Can Am report is saying.
Thanks Blyvyl..a good idea but the links in my file aren’t organized for that.it is all my data and links on he E/W highway and Highway Privatizations..best is to go to MDOT website and to the E/W highway page or go to Deending Water For Life E/W Highway page..
So, the archive of verifiable expert studies from which you quote so often… is not available. You are straining your credibility, Lindsay.
Very dishonest of you to make this post Brandon as I have provided you with links to every single document in the past.
If you were really interested in finding and presenting the truth you would provide these links I took considerable time to provide to you just recently from your own files. You are just harrassing me and using not very admirable tactics to suggest that these reports are mythical and you are straight out lying to suggest I haven’t given them to you in the past and that you have read them and know here others can obtain them . You are just spamming me and this conversation without making a single useful contribution.
They most certainly are all available..all anyone has to do is go to the MDOT website at the E/W Highway Page as I suggested and also to the Defending Water For Life Website. Above in a post a few hours ago I provided a link to the Can Am report ( which may also be up at the MDOT site).
Your offerings here in this community are not forthright not probative, not useful in developing public information about the highway and not respectful of the due diligence others are making to present and share factual information.
Your tactics are neither honest nor helpful in any way to a citizen discussion of issues on the E/W highway.
Lindsay, the reason I made the post is because it is very easy to share links to documents online… a simple matter of cut and paste. It seems odd that when someone asked you for the source of your criticism, you didn’t provide the links. I cannot provide the links for you — I don’t know where you get your notions that an EW Highway is a completely impractical idea. In fact, I read the Can Am study and see plenty of support for the idea of east-west connectivity to bolster economic activity, whereas you see inconsistencies between what highway supporters claim and what the study recommends. Rather than simply state that inconsistencies exist, why not show us where you believe there are inconsistencies, so that your views can be analyzed for validity or lack thereof?
Truly, I don’t mean to sound disrespectful when challenging your claims. I am merely doing exactly what you are doing: challenging the logic and validity of statements made by “authorities” in this debate. You have established yourself as one of the authorities of the anti-highway argument, even going so far as to say “don’t bother to listen to the opponent’s dog and pony show.” (By the way, please tell me how that sentiment is “helpful to a citizen discussion of issues on the E/W highway”). It seems only fair that I have a chance to challenge your claims, just as you have every right to challenge my claims, which you have endeavored to do with few qualms in the past.
When I read the Can Am study, I see recommendations like: “Invest in a limited-access, truck-friendly northern east–west highway. Improve the region’s position as a trade link and trans-shipment point for the Great Lakes to the Atlantic Ocean trade. Improve the region’s position as a crossroads for north–south and east–west trade flows.” And the conclusion: “The magnitude of potential benefits in terms of their present value is significant – more than $1 billion (USD) for all scenarios and up to $15 billion for the ‘seamless-movement’ scenario.” Is it harassment for me to point out these quotes from the very study that you say debunks the benefits of an EW Highway?
I have offered numerous rebuttals in this thread for you (and whoever else might be interested) to consider and answer. Instead of offering counterpoints, you call me a liar and question my honesty. As the opponents at the DF meeting were fond of shouting at the highway supporters who were trying to make a presentation, why not just “answer the question?”
Meanwhile, if my criticisms of your positions sound disrespectful to you, I will tell you that this is not my intention, and I apologize for any unintentional discourtesies you might have perceived in that direction.
Siberia Sue..it was Vigue himself who had hoped to have the 2000′ corridor of the Stud Mill RD ( Echo Easemenet Corridor LLC) extend the full length of the highway. Someone, most likely MDOT, forced him to back off that idea. So now he only speaks of the 2000′ in relations to the Stud Mill Rd section.
You can verify that yourself with a cursory search and quick read of the many earlier BDN articles on this renewed push for the E/W Highway.
More info & background on my other posts here.
Senator Thomas, you have done a great job serving this state, but this highway project is the definition of “boondoggle”. Anyone who has travelled the rebuilt Rt. 9 knows it is very under-utilized, and now you want to spend billions building another highway just north of it that will also very likely be under-utilized.
There are many better ways to pay for roads than stopping 70-mile-an-hour traffic and lining up cars that sit and pump CO2 into the air. Toll roads literally stink!
“The road may or may not ever be built, but that decision should be based
on facts and not scare tactics by those who oppose any kind of economic
development for our area.”
Spoken like a true politician… Set up a false political divide… those that “favor economic development and those that don’t…” and then play that false meme to the hilt.
I’m willing to bet most of those that oppose this boondoggle for the 1% are all for SOUND, SUSTAINABLE economic development… not development that disproportionately benefits those with the resources to exploit those without the resources to protect their own interests.
With this type of messaging the FACTS don’t matter one whit. It is how politics is done.
It’s not a false division. It is central to the argument. The divide is those that want responsible development and those that don’t want any. Folks may SAY they want economic development but it has to be their way in their time which in reality means no.
That’s your opinion, and not easily substantiated either. I’ve heard lots of folks argue in favor of upgrading rail service and also exploring the existing options for east-west travel that might actually offer more in the way of economic development in already developed areas rather than imagining it will appear anew along the route of this highway to any great extent. No plan is offered for how this development will appear, what forms it might take, what types of jobs or security might follow from this highway. Other than the construction jobs in building the road, and the maintenance jobs associated with it, it is little more than wishful thinking believing this will spur economic growth when so little economic growth is taking place along our existing routes.
It most certainly is a false division. It most certainly is how the politics of divide and conquer takes place. “Jobs vs the environment” is another false meme commonly used in divisive messaging. The two are not mutually exclusive, as just about everyone knows, but to use the meme in messaging can be very effective influencing those that don’t dig into the issues deeply enough.
You may or may not know but rail is an unreliable method of shipping a product and the financial viability is a whole lot less than by truck. People are not going to travel from a non-existent Canadian train system to Bangor and shop either. Being an hour closer is a big deal on the highway, means more people coming from our neighbors in Canada. They already make the trek over during the holiday season. This will make Bangor a closer destination year round.
Yes, big business will benefit and make them more financially viable employing people paying them more and so on but many small businesses in the Bangor area will benefit as well.
The stud mill road portion ( I am more familiar with that) already has many of the environmental permits done because of the existing road.
I really think the objections are more emotionalism and remind me of the woman that stood up in a public meeting a few years ago and objected to a new housing development.
Her objection? She wanted to know where the tree spirits would live if the devlopers cut down the trees they lived in. Objections to this project have the same feel.
Perhaps Senator Thomas should have ended his sentence with a period after the word “facts” so that it would read: “The road may or may not ever be built, but that decision should be based on facts.” Almost all of us could probably agree .
we can not maintain our current roads sufficiently why do we need another one? yeah I know its going to be a private toll highway like the Maine turnpike but keep in mind what is happening at the Maine turnpike now. major toll increases and recovering from mismanagement.
Finally, we all know ‘tax incentives’ will be given to the people building this road if the project goes forward. I don’t know about you but I don’t think it is right to give tax money away when our economy and current roads are in such poor state
The senator’s “Facts” are scary.
This gigantic and overwhelming project destined to cut a “500-foot- wide” swath 220-miles long through the very heart of this great state, is enough to scare the pants off any Mainer.
Senator Thomas took a half page of today’s Op’ Ed’ Page in an attempt to buttress the arguments of Le Page and Vigue that this destructive and disgusting ditch digging proposal will benefit all of Maine.
How can a limited access highway facilitate the trucking of goods from various points in Maine? From what little we have been allowed to pick-up on this super secret “good for everyone” deal, only two entry points are available in Maine.
Atlantic Canada and the Province of Quebec are the only two principal entities to benefit from such a project. And, unless you pump gas and serve food on the highway, Maine’s small businesses which provide such services would be ignored.
If you can get on the track in two places, what chance do you have pushing sandwiches, gas, and doughnuts to travelers in Mid-Western Maine. Once you’re on this rocket launch, top speed will make 75 mph look like a snail crawl.
The senator also excludes proposed or suggested toll fees estimated at $100 for passenger cars and $200 for trucks.
This business of excluding the “eminent domain” taking of land sounds shallow. How can you cut across my prosperous strawberry patch without taking it by eminent domain? Le Page wouldn’t let a lettuce stop him, if voters swallow the bait.
Thus far – politicians backing the project by attacking those who have genuine concerns and a love for the state. The route cannot be disclosed? Why not? Too early for homeowners and landowners to see it? Wait awhile. Who wants to let on we’re bulldozing your front garden and taking down your vegetable stand – oh, and pushing your homestead back a couple of hundred feet?
Project pushers need to push some facts forward.
The facts have been out there for quite some time. Why did you not go to the meeting in Dover Foxcroft where Vigue and Thomas spent three hours talking about the proposal and answering questions? They discussed the fact that upwards of eight interchanges are planned, not just the two that you mention.
Because it is easier to stay in front of the computer and shoot off at the mouth.
And, where are these Interchanges located?
From reports, only two possible access points have been mentioned. It is categorized by Vigue and Le Page as a “Limited Access Highway,” is it not?
Even it had 20 access points, it still is nothing but a big waste.
In the next-to-the last sentence of his “op-ed” Sen. Thomas wrote: “Let’s take a good look before we make our decision and base that decision on facts, not rumors and misinformation. ” That’s slightly out of context, but I agree. As a former federal law enforcement officer and a national union officer, I learned to base my decisions on available facts, not assumptions. At present I’m opposed to the E-W highway as proposed, but my mind could be changed if proponents can make the case that the benefits will out-weigh the negatives.
I thank Sen. Thomas for the information, but am not convinced. There are far too many questions still unanswered. Until we can prove otherwise, though, I believe we have to take him and Mr. Vigue at their word. That doesn’t mean that we have to let our guard down. Eventually, “they” are going to have to present an actual proposal for the necessary permits, etc., and the legislature will “have a whack at it” as some point. That should give ample time to make arguments for or against it as long as we pay attention. I don’t think it’s helpful to make a lot of assumptions and then “get our knickers in a twist” over those assumptions.
Does anyone know who has been contracted to conduct the $300,000, “unbiased” study? I have a feeling that “skids have been greased” and that the study will support the building of the highway. I hope I’m wrong.
No, you’re not. As a fellow retired LEO, we have both seen concept contractor’s deliver exactly what the ‘boss”s’ want, not necessarily what they need or what the actual facts and evidence lead to or indicate. TSA is proof of that and it’s seen every day. So is the USA’s Office in court when they steer case’s on the basis of politic’s. Look at the 9 USA’s that got the ‘cut’ for standing up to Bush’s AG for refusing to investigate useless cases’s on the basis of political ‘Chicken Little’ing’. Same for the Keystone pipeline. In theory it’s looks great. But when you start looking at the ‘gut’s’ of the plan, and the numerous ‘conflict of interested’ Party’s that all have their hand’s in the till regarding the outcome, and blind acceptance, of the plan,, well, the ‘outcome’ is not that really a big surprise, is it ? You’ve got the right idea and the right 50 yard liine seat to see it happening. Just make sure the ‘cheerleader’s’ don’t cloud the view ! Hooyah !
Guilty until proven innocent. And you call yourself an honorable ex-cop. Speaking of Keystone… I can’t help but chuckle at how the description seems to fit you in certain ways.
blyvl, so far, you are the voice of reason here…
Hi Blyyl..according to MDOT the Feasibility study for the E/W Hway hasn’t been awarded yet and they are still working on scope.It would be great if “we the people” had a chance to see the scope before it went out for bid to make sure our questions are answered.
The study to be conducted by some as-yet-to-be-named contractor regarding the highway will be very limited in scope as shown by the following link and by the sentence which follows it. As set out in the RFP (request for proposals) from the MDOT, the “study” will primarily deal with traffic and economic issues.
http://defendingwater.net/maine/2012/05/mdot-request-for-proposals-east-west-toll-highway-traffice-and-revenue-study/
“MaineDOT requires the services of a firm (or team) with engineering, planning and economic capabilities to assess the impact of a proposed new highway on traffic volumes and routings, and the resulting level of revenue to be generated by tolls on that highway.”
Task 4 from the RFP also says, in part:
“The Consultant will identify any significant barriers or risks associated with permitting and construction of an East West Highway and the establishment of a private toll authority. The discussion should include a list of the applicable State and Federal permitting requirements that are necessary for a private entity to implement the proposed toll highway.”
It doesn’t appear that the “study” will address environmental issues, land acquistion, etc.