BANGOR, Maine — Given its location, if Maine is to prosper in the evolving global economy, it must take advantage of every potential opportunity that it can.
And when it comes to competing, the state needs to address some major shortcomings in terms of getting goods and products to major markets in the Midwest and such major Canadian cities as Montreal, Cianbro Corp. Chairman and CEO Peter Vigue said Thursday during an address to movers and shakers in the forest products industry.
The solution, as Vigue sees it, is the proposed east-west highway, which has been talked about for decades. The effort to get the private toll highway built recently got a boost when Vigue decided to lead the charge.
Vigue spoke about the proposed toll highway at the Sea Dog Banquet & Conference Center at the invitation of the Forest Resources Association, a national organization that represents all segments of the wood fiber supply chain, including landowners, land managers, wood suppliers, wood buyers and others, according to its website.
Joel Swanton, northeast regional manager for the association, said association officials thought it would be a good idea to invite Vigue to speak because many of the association’s Maine members had questions about the project and its potential effects on their industry.
Vigue said the people behind the state’s forest resources industry
could be important allies in the project.
“One of the things I enjoy the most is when people come together to work together and collaborate to enhance and improve their industry, and that is something that is badly needed in the state,” he said. “You folks do it on a routine basis and I compliment you for it, particularly in an industry that is so important in this state and has such a rich history — and I believe a history that will be around for a long, long time to come.”
According to Vigue, one only need look at a map of North America to understand how vital the 220-mile highway across Maine would be to the state’s long-term economic viability.
The Georgia-Pacific Corp. mill in Old Town and the Lemforder plant in Brewer are just two of the many major employers that have left Maine in recent years.
The reason, Vigue says, is simple: “The cost of transportation costs and the cost of energy.”
Vigue said that one association member told him that evening that it cost $1 a mile to transport wood.
“That is a big deal considering where we live and where we’re located,” he said.
Those are some of the reasons why Vigue says he is leading the effort to get the highway built.
Proposed is a 220-mile toll road that would run a fairly straight shot from Calais due west to Coburn Gore, Vigue said. The road would be built on private rights-of-way, would run below the proposed “Restore” national park area and avoid existing protected natural resources.
Despite some questions about potential new costs to the industry, such as toll costs, there was virtually no opposition to the planned road during Thursday’s meeting.
The highway, however, is not universally supported.
Earlier this month, the Piscataquis County town of Monson became the first Maine municipality to impose a six-month moratorium on privately owned highways and utility corridors. The vote to that end was unanimous — 47 to 0.
Anti-east-west highway signs also have been popping up in Dover-Foxcroft and other nearby communities. Some concerns cited by foes include fears that land will be taken by eminent domain and potential adverse environmental effects — concerns Vigue has been working to allay.
“We have no intention of taking people’s property, we have no intention of impacting people in a negative manner,” he told association members Thursday night. “All I ask you to do is this: Look at our track record. Look at how we treat our people. Look at how we treat Maine companies and look at our history,” he said referring to Cianbro Corp.’s history in Maine.
While Vigue spoke to forest resources association members in the Sea Dog’s Penobscot Room, about a dozen protesters outside held up signs decrying the project.
The rally was organized by Friends of Piscataquis Valley, which is part of a larger coalition called Stop the East-West Corridor, said Sidney Mitchell of Dover-Foxcroft, a founding member of the former group.
“Our effort is all around the goal of no corridor, no compromise. We don’t want to mitigate, we don’t want to compromise with these people. They’re just into speculative profiteering and they will take this state.”
Mitchell called the proposed highway a “four-lane trucking route from Canada to Canada. Just that physical abomination is going to wipe out our entire area. Southern Piscataquis [County], northern Penobscot [County], all those highly populated rural areas will be destroyed by this.”
Another issue Vigue addressed Thursday was whether Canadian companies had more to gain from the road than Maine companies.
“It doesn’t matter if you’re in Maine or in Canada. We’re all facing the same challenges” he said.
Asked about the time frame for the project, Vigue said plans call for lining up financial resources in the next nine months to a year. The next step, the design and right-of-way acquisition phase, is expected to take another three years and construction, three more years.
Maine really needs to allow jobs to come into our state. Somebodies going to have build the crazy thing. As long as the E-W Highway is not allowed to invoke eminent domain, build it! We need the revenue. We’re filled to our eyebrows with consumer businesses, we need some producer businesses. Perhaps, this will allow for mills to open back up. Not every new thing that comes to Maine, is evil and scary. The black flies and mosquitos will adapt and moose population will continue to live on.
Roads and Infrastructure have a social impact on a community no matter what this wanna be Robber Baron says!
They belong the property of the state to the benefit of the citizens of the State as a Whole and should not be a Private Enterprise route through one country for the benefit of another with a Highway Robber in between with a hostage taking toll booth.
If the road is Viable, the State and the Federal Government can do it just as well as some Pirating Businessmen!
Do the study, if it’s feasible and benefitial to the State economy, Take the Land By Eminent Domain, Build it and pay for it with the tolls !
That’s the way it has always been done, thats the way that it should be done, thats the way that Maine Statutes in the past have allowed it to be done.
Send this leach packing!
“Robber Baron”…. now that’s a great way to begin a cogent discussion of the pros, and cons, of Vigue’s proposal.
I’d say you’ve never met a real Robber Baron if you believe Vigue’s one.
“Let the name-calling begin” (continue)!
He needs to sick to building roads , put his Bid in whn the time comes like everyone else and get out of politiccs!
This whole Private / Public scheme is part of he ” Get Government Out of the Way ” mantra designed to turn this country over to a handful of oligarths to run as they see fit.
Reagan started it back in the 80’s and the Propoganda began denounceing govenment and praiseing free enterprise as the only solution to our problems, then when their policies start creating the problems they project those problems onto government as the ones creating the problem.
Robber Baron’s?
You ain’t seen nothing yet, keep allowing for profit buisness to provide the essential common elements of our society such as roads , education, mail, fire and police and one day you may wake up paying to drive to work on the companies road to get to the plant to manufacture the very goods that you require to survive.
Only to return home to see that your house burnt to the ground because there was only one fireman left at the Wal-mart Fire brigade because it was downsized to keep the ROI at 21 % for the CEO!
If you can’ se that you have your head buried deep in the sand.
Sayin’ it like it is!!! Thanks Dlbrt.
Taxes are supposed to be for services provided by our cities and towns, not for private corporations to use for profit and to develop their companies with. Time to open the books and see where the money has been going.
I agree. Peter Vigue should stay out of politics.
Politics should remain the exclusive domain of people, with too much time on their hands, pretending to be illiterates, as they troll, troll, troll, away.
Interesting that Lindsay sees you as an ally.
Good grief.
To much time!?
I have a Braille keyboard and a sound synthezer to troll with !
try to keep up with me!
your brain may meltdown!
Edit; that’s literate by the way!
Yup. The fake illiterate, an oldie-but-goodie. Probably another incarnation of billybee.
Some don’t need to fake illiteracy!
LOL
Well spoken from the mouth of a true socialist.
Benjamin Franklin was a Socialist as he was the founder of the Post Offices of America!
Also one of the Founding Fathers of the Constitution and this great nation!
Socialism is only a dirty word to those whithout the intelect to undersatnd it’s benefits to Society
Benefit in your opinion. Show me where socialism has truly been successful for its host nation, and where it didn’t create some sort of government oppression. This country was not founded with socialist views and goals. If thats what you seek, go find it. I know a fair amount about socialism for being a lame brained Republican.
Public Postal Rds are in the Constitution, as well as the power of Congress to Provide for the common defense and to promote the general welfare. Also the power to regulate commerce.
The Army, Navy, Airforce, Postoffices Rds and Highways are almost all owned by the government.
Socialism is defined by the government owning the means of production. In ALL of those cases those means are owned by the Government bought and paid for by Tax Revenue generated from the power of Taxation given to congress by the People!
You Know,
“We the People!”
America is a Socialiazed Democratic Republic,
Always has been and always should be.
Where in America is production socially owned? Where in America is private property no longer privately owned? And to answer my original question, where on this earth has socialism prevailed for a nation and provided economic prosperity for the government and it’s people and at the same time didn’t have some form social oppression created by the government. You know as well as I know this country doesn’t hide behind the cloak of socialism, but I’m sure many on the far left have wet dreams at night about the subject. And use of the postal system as a model of socialism, since when does the U.S.Postal Service appear as the model of success? They are broke, postal rates have gone through the roof, and if it wasn’t for the federal government propping them up, it would have long gone belly up as many other socialist states are broke. I can’t imagine what would happen to FedEx and UPS if they operated the same way. You point to certain forms of infrastructure being owned by the government, but that hardly qualifies our nation being a socialist nation. The economy, real estate, and free market in general are driven by free people (usually coined as greedy people by liberals), but 80 percent of all businesses in this country qualify as “small business”. People that support socialism indicates one of two things to me, They either have no money and have had minimal success on the current system, or they were fostered by people early on in life that were capitalism haters themselves. It happens in our schools every day.
The Government controls production in the United States of America, some private owned some public owned.
But all under the regulation of the “Commerce Clause”.
America is a Mixture of Socialism and Capitalism!
My college economics proffessor in the 70’s predicted that if the Soviet Union didn’t engage in more capitalism it would fail.
It Did!
He also predicted that if the US didn’t become more engaged in Socialism that it would also fail, as pure Capitalism can only result in a very few wealthy controllers and very many poor who wont be able to support the economy as they will have become to poor to support it.
That is where we are today!
Look at world history, runawy Fascism / Capitalism always ends in the working class throwing off their shackles in revolt and moving toward socialism.
What do you think happened in Cuba?
A” Balanced “Mixture is a good recipe.
And today, anyone in Cuba lucky enough to own one drives a 1952 chevy.
The only reason capitalism may fail in this country is if it is made to fail as is happening now with the excessive borrowing the government is doing which will eventually collapse the dollar. Washington has not had any fiscal responsibility for several years and for good reason. To deliver on the promise of a new economy. As in the case you point out, socialism. It is quietly being gone about, and may succeed. The Soviet Union did fail, but again was made to do so from all the excessive military spending and the dire conditions the people were living in. Your college professor was more than likely like all the 92 percent of higher educators (very liberal) so do you suppose for a minute he/she may have had a biased/slanted view on how the world economy should be? I’m sure it woul;d have taken a fool not to figure out the Soviets were doomed even then. And you really think Cuba would be a cool place to live and there would be plenty of prosperity to go around? Really? You might want to go ask a few Cubans what they think about that. I’m sure if things were so rosey over there, thousands wouldn’t have fled the island by boat to come here. There is a reason thins country has flourished over the course of it’s history. Opportunity. It’s out there for ambitious people to take advantage of. Thats the problem. We are running out of ambitious people, and have instilled an entitlement mindset over the last 50 years. Now it may be too late and you may get your wish. See you in the re-education camps.
You dont have any Idea as to what you are talking about.
Entitlements are just a new catch phrase used to draw the fire way from the real crooks! ‘
The ones trying to deregulate for higher profit margins and to drive lower wages in this country by sending work overseas and busting up the Unions that once helped the Middle Class thrive!
In 1965 we had social security and welfare, we also had good paying American JOBS for the middle class!
You didn’t hear all this whining about entitlements back then because most Middle Class people where thriveing!
Well the Thriveing has done wore out!
There ain’t No more Thriveing left , its all gone to China!
So the best thing to do is draw the heat off the real culprits and focus on the one last thing left that they can rob us of!
Social Security!
I ain’t buying it!
It was your president (Clinton) that was presiding when NAFTA was signed into law. That is what has allowed all the jobs to leave. You unions were necessary at one time, but became way too greedy and costly in the process, and they hold way too much political power over our elected officials. Just because you don’t see it my way, doesn’t mean I don’t know what I am talking about. All you can see through your glasses is filthy rich people getting richer. O.K. I assume you think they are all Republicans. I beg to differ. There are plenty of Democrats that have gotten stupid rich of of the same people you have empathy for. I guess seeing how they are aligned on the proper side of the aisle that they get a pass. There is plenty of thriving to be had in this country. One just needs to get off the couch and figure it out for themselves without the government getting in the way. I find it ironic that the very type of government you speak about when you prop up Socialism would have you in jail for speaking out against it’s system, but here in the U.S. the government and economy you have an obvious hatred for, allows you to say what you want about it without fear of retribution. The grass does appear greener on the other side doesn’t it? Well I can tell you first hand after traveling to numerous countries during my 30 plus year career, we have a far better standard of living here than anywhere else. Why do you think so many people are trying to immigrate here? If socialism takes root here, I will not be this rosy, utopia that you and all of your socialist friends think its going to be. There will be no money, no wealth for anyone except the very elite, health care will be substandard because no one in their right mind will stay in the business and there will be no incentive for future success. There will always be the case of “the haves vs. the have nots” in the world. No matter what style of government there is in place. It’s a fact of life. You want to be “a have”? Go make it happen while you have the chance.
If you are using the US Postal Service as guide to tout your view of the benefits of Government you should really consider some other source. Red ink abounds at that particular institution.
Thank you for you insight Dlbrt. well said
A cogent discussion? Do you mean the ones where everyone sits quietly and listens to bs and lies and never, ever “calls” the liar out? Might work for you, Sawyer, but Dlbrt’s got their number…as do many other Mainers. Of course, we are not big business owners, so I guess that equates to “Shut up and put up” eh? Don’t count on it.
mainegal17,
I am right with you on this. Name it. call it out. name them. hold them up. reveal them. I did that in almost every bill I testified on this year.
We have to make it a posion pill for any legislator to even take a phone call from these folk let alone sponsor their bills or vote for them.
There’s a county in GA where citizens have gone to their County Commissioners and demanded answers. They are looking into every penny spent. So glad that Al Gore invented the Internet (ha) so we can learn from other people in other places. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEjFfWAdhVw&feature=em-uploademail
love this!!! Thanks!!! Just by watching what happens every day in our legislature..speaking about it..testifying about it..letting our legislators know we are watching..
If we choose to take control..we the people have a power that supercedes and over rides all else.
You’re not the only citizen watching, Lindsay…. there are others of us who want something done about Maine’s decrepit economy, even in the face of loud insulting people like yourself who will do and say anything to stop progress.
“loud and insulting”?
are you self describing Brandon??
the hundreds and hundreds who oppose Vigue’s wacky highway and who are on to the agenda at Maine Forest Products are 100% for jobs, economic development and recovery of the northern counties. They are not stupid enough to believe that crazy highway has anything at all to do with nay of those objectives. That’s the difference Brabbdon.
You beuev in false prophets.
The rest of us are looking to and daily writing about real solutions. I( if you read more, you’d know that Brandon)
And no I will not do your homework for you..you are like all those boys in my physics class and you will pay for not doing your homework as they did.
If you really care about creating jobs and opportunity in Maine get off those Vigue bandwagon ans d start blogging and working with those of us that are pushing for more promising solutions.
Thank you for proving my point about your loud and insulting ranting…I can easily cut and paste a dozen more examples from the past few weeks if you like.
Oh yes, I could do that too ..they are all TO YOU and ONLY YOU..many of us have decided that the best way to handle trolls is to name them and call them out.
Well..and I have decided on that policy with Vigue too..say what it is..name it.
Deserves no honor
Deservesno respect.
If you assemble all my “calling out” on you and on Vigue..I think for once you will get a lot of “likes” a round of applause even.
Well, well… so now you admit to rude, crude name calling and ranting, when just a moment ago, you were portraying yourself as completely innocent and civil. And what have I ever done except to offer counter points to your “truths” whenever I encounter your claims? Pardon me for exercising my First Amendment rights. You are civil, all right, but only to the people who agree with you.
Literary “bomb throwing” is textbook Saul Alinsky “Rules for Radicals”. I say fight fire with fire. Good job Brandon.
“The rest of us are looking to and daily writing about real solutions.”
You forgot to add the caveat “as long as not one blade of grass is disturbed, a tree cut, or a bird has to fly away”… Admittedly my words, not yours Lindsay. But you get the picture I’m sure.
And so it is, the liberal think tank on job creation in Maine. Do whatever it is you wish as long as my elitist lifestyle and my view are not disturbed in any way except the ugly windmills of course. After all, I HAVE mine, why should I care about anyone else?
Steve63-10
Yes I hear you ..entrenchment comes from both sides..no question about that..both sides have to start talking about not just sustainable but thrivebale economic growth and development for the north that encourages and strengthens community ties, local culture and local traditions. No one is talking about that now.
That’s the conversation I want have with all of us here.
Thank heavens we have the Caped Crusader Lindsay Bowker to protect us from prosperity….
my cape is purple..very elegant
your cape matches the color of your face when you are in the middle of a rant…
again brandon..it is your own reflection in the mirror you see
my posts,their civility and integrity speak for themselves..
everyone here knows I do not rant
everyone here knnows who does
any guesses?
Lindsay: “my posts,their civility and integrity speak for themselves..everyone here knows I do not rant…”
Dlbrt: “send this leach packing!”
Lindsay: “Sayin’ it like it is!!! Thanks Dlbrt.”
Oh yeah, Lindsay… you and your pals are paragons of civility and integrity. Ha!
When yo enter the world of politics such as Mr Vigue, you open yourself up to such comments.
Its common knowledge!
It goes with the territory!
Whose prosperity? I am so broke I am nearly unable to work, due to criminality, corruption and collusion of bankers, insurers, politicians and other globalists. Maine was fine before they all decided to screw us. And before you jump on me, look at your life and career, and figure out where the prosperity came from.
And what do you propose to do about your jobless, poverty-stricken situation? NOTHING, like your anti-highway buddies? Why not give a listen to someone like Vigue who has a proven track record of job creation in Maine? What can it hurt to listen to the ideas of the highway supporters to see if they have merit, rather than insult the supporters and accuse them of every vice that exists?
Why would he require the taxpayer to cosign half the project through Maine bonds and then deny Mainers the right to use the road or have any say over it?
Who says Mainers won’t be able to use it? I’ve never seen that in print. At the Dover Foxcroft meeting, Vigue said that the highway likely would present more opportunities for tourism-based businesses because of access to the state’s interior which would be provided by the road. Why would the investors turn away millions of passenger vehicles and all that return on investment? Your premise seems flawed.
“Likely”
That and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Irvings Quick Stop!
LOL
Since when is anything in a free market economy a certainty, as replete with risk for investors as the system is? It’s the American way, Dlbrt. Once you pull your head out of your dark socialist mindset, you might finally have a chance to contribute some ideas to the debate over how to improve our lot in Maine.
Someday you will realize that job creation comes from demand.
No Money, No Demand!
Supply side economics is like building a million dollar yacht , only to sit befuddled , dead in the water , just another chunk of driftwood lost in the doldrums where the winds of commerce don’t blow!
Dlbrt, since you are the great job creation expert, what is your plan to employ 54,000 unemployed Mainers?
The Very first thing would be to stop the purchasing of energy in speculative markets where oil is bought on margin without the buyer ever considering taking possecion of the product.
Keynesian economics relied on the federal reserve to balance between unemployment and inflation using interest rates.
It is no surprise that changes in the interest rates in a global economy has little effect on the US economy these days.
Watch energy prices!
Every time the US economy starts to pick up the price of energy goes up unrelated to market conditions but related to the speculative market.
Oil has become the tool of controlling economies as it has surpassed the controlling effect of interest rates.
A handful of global billionaires can control the world economy these days with speculation in the energy markets by just bying on margin.
A law should be passed that the only ones allowed to purchase these commodities have to have the facilities to to take delivery!
mainegal…. you don’t have a monopoly on the truth, so quit acting like you do. All anyone ever hears is the loud, rude, and often misinformed wailing of the anti-highway crowd. You’ve gotten your say, and then some. Nobody counts on you shutting up. But just a reminder: there are two sides to the story, and thankfully there are people to present the pro-development side as well, though I’m certain that you, like some of your colleagues who have posted here, would prefer that Vigue and the other highway supporters “Shut up and put up”…. well, don’t count on it.
Let’s stay ….one state …..untouched …no one wants to see a highway threw our beautiful Maine woods ……it’s the people who don’t live in the area that don’t care ….it’s easy to say build a E/W highway when you live in portland Saco and kittery ….Real Maine is north of Cumberland county …..we should break away from Portland and Massachussets can have her back … Maine slow& peaceful :) the way life should be
Our woods?
That’s for retired folks, for young people, real Maine is the greater Portland area, that’s where the economy still functions and jobs exist.
I love the woods, live in the center of the State, but still see an economic vacuum for every non-retiree near the CP tracks area. Dover, Dexter MONSON, Milo, they’re all ghost towns for young people that need work.
It would be interesting to get a reading on what I-91 did to the famous Northern Kingdom of Vermont, did it improve things or just gut the great mountain/stream/pond area?
On the last paragraph in your post, tedjohn: I would say neither.
I-91 north of St. Johnsbury has not resulted in a vibrant economy. I’m sure Lindsay Newland Bowker and those on that side of this debate would be quick to agree with me.
On the other hand, I don’t think there has been a gutting of the area.
This isn’t an either/or, although the loudest voices always try to make it that way. I’ve been to Glenwood Canyon, Colorado, where state-of-the-art engineering and technology have made it possible to put Interstate 70 through that area – it did not destroy anything, and it did complete an important national link in the transportation system.
It also needs to be said that while it takes more than a highway being built to make a vibrant economy, and that while it is true that the sections of Maine and Vermont that we are comparing share some similarities, it is equally true that there are differences. One advantage that Maine has over Vermont is its potential as a multi-modal shipping hub, as it has potential to expand deepwater container shipping, and has double-stack rail capability from Searsport to Montreal and to points west (including points in the USA). There is still a need for highway transport. No one who is thinking fairly denies that rail has an important place, but it is also true that those attempting to think fairly recognize some of the limitations of rail, as well. It works best for low value, bulk, cargoes, not subject to “just-in-time” requirements.
It is really difficult to make money trucking east and west in this part of the country. There is an increasing lack of capacity farther south, as one then tries to go east-west. South of Albany, crossings of the Hudson are very, very busy.
Port capacity in the USA is also closer to being maxed out than many realize. In addition, the Port of South Louisiana is at the mercy of course changes to the Mississippi River – such a change did not happen in the Flood of 2011, but is inevitable, and it probably will happen in the next few decades.
No doubt certain individuals who reside on idyllic islands, living off trust funds, and running art colonies, will respond to what they consider my poorly reasoned approach to the problem. That is fine. They can go for it. My comments represent my opinion as someone who has been around the transportation business for a long time, both as the son of an owner-operator, as a longtime transportation agency employee, as a self-employed consultant, and as a part-time truck driver.
Warren Spaulding, PE
MaineDOT, retired and former employee at Los Angeles County Road Dept.
Very well put Buddy. And in a fair and thoughtful way.
It’s clear there are benefits for the Canadians and out-of-staters on either end of the road.
What’s not clear are the benefits for the people in between: Mainers.
If Vigue had hard numbers on the economic benefits, you could be sure he’d be pushing them. People can dream all they want, but “If you build it they will come works only in the movies.”
Also, what about the jobs for people already there? Don’t the farmers count for anything?
If Maine split in two, Northern Maine would probably be the poorest state in the country.
sorry, I have seen peaceful co-existing between nature
and industry. Business does (respected businesses) care for nature and they do
have policy in place even government doesn’t. It’s healthy to cut down mature
trees and let smaller trees grow. Lumber industry in maine is small compare what I see out here. I seen amazing industry and job listing… Everyone who is out here that is from Maine and NB doesn’t want to go back. Simply put.
You say “Maine slow& peaceful :) the way
life should be”
sorry I left Maine and one of the reason was that mentality.
Maybe you are finical set and you just want to have woodland and have a
peaceful retirement… I’m not sure. But for young folks are trying so hard to fiind
a decent paying job.. I have refuse jobs that only pay 7.50 an hour. Give me a
break, I don’t want to be on welfare, I don’t want to stave. The state needs
$12 plus jobs..
“Maine slow& peaceful :) the way life should be” will be
the death of Maine.
OK, show me. How many $12 an hour jobs is Vigure’s corridor going to produce? Not just the jobs building the thing, but long-term, permanent numbers. All I’m seeing is hand-waving.
With respect Sam… It will be easier for business and
reduce traveling cost to ship items. I’m not talking about Fedex or Ups, I mean
large transport. It will be easier for a business to ship products to Ontario,
Quebec, Western part of Canada when they can just zip over not going Portland mass
then go north. Know gas and diesel is plus 4 per gallon. It can save money and
less polluting. When the highway is built the business can compete more efficient
due to lower cost of fuel and transport. Also it could jumpstart tourism in the
area…
If it produces one, it will be one more than there is now out in the middle of the woods.
Not every new thing that comes to Maine is evil and scary but not every new thing that comes to Maine is good for us either. After the road is built and those temporary jobs are gone just how do you think that this highway would benefit us economically in the long term? I just don’t see it doing much for us economically but it could hurt people who depend on having access to the Stud Mill Road to make a living .
Hi Michaela1947..this group Maine Forest Products (the local of the national Forest Products Resource Association) sponsored/supported a bill to repeal the requirement that foreign hunters hire a maine guide..they also (see my post above) promoted a bill to allow access to cheap Canadian and other foreign labor.
“they also (see my post above) promoted a bill to allow access to cheap Canadian and other foreign labor. ”
How very interesting, Lindsay. It sounds like this group, then, must be in LePage’s back pocket (must be getting full these days). After all, LePage, himself, has paved the way for Canadian loggers to come in and replace Maine woodsmen. Sen. Troy Jackson has been fighting all the way for his constituents, but apparently LePage only has time for partisan meetings.
RECLAIM MAINE VOTE DEMOCRAT 2012
Mainegal17,
Hi. Your posts are always right on target..Right dead center on truth.
Actually it is the other way around though..it is this group that feeds LePage THEIR legislative agenda.
How do we help Tory Jackson and other who are fending off these disastrous Maine Forest Products/ALEC/Koch Brothers agendas? I will try to reach out to him one on one as I have done with many manyother legislators in the northerm counties and try to stay in touch.
In the follow on to the still focused opposition to Vigue’s delusional East West Corridor plan, the 300 to 400 grass roots citizen activists are pressing on a larger agenda which seeks to end the corporatocracy in Maine and build an affirmative sensible agenda that grows jobs in local communities out of the unique and virbant texture, culture and talent in these communities. Still a very young effort but I think what they are laying out f the first meaningful campaign for real economic development and job growth in the northerm counties.
And needless to say..insourcing cheap foreign labor is not in their verison of “jobs for Maine”
Mainegal17, tnaks for being here iwth us who are trying to bring a broader base of facts and information to Maine readers so that they can think things through for themselves and form their own ideas apart from meme mere opinion and ideology.
When that happens..left and right stand together on common ground that is good for Maine communities and good for Maine.
“Your posts are always right on target..Right dead center on truth.
Actually it is the other way around though…”
Which is it, Lindsay? Right dead center on truth? Or “Actually it is the other way around though…”
You’re so busy lapping your like-minded bloggers that you can’t get out of the way of your own tongue.
“Somebodies going to have build the crazy thing. ”
You must not realize that Canada cannot build the necessary connector to link the west end of the proposed highway to their current highway system. The East-West Highway is Maine’s Bridge to Nowhere.
WHY doesn’t anyone else mention this? This road (as a public enterprise) has been “studied” (at taxpayer expense) at least 3 times before. ALL these studies have come back with a “Not profitable for Maine” finding. One of the reasons (but not the only one) is that Canada has no linking road, and is not planning one.
Tux,
All true..ad right on the pulse of this whole matter. Thanks.
Lindsay, you are not the almighty judge of truth here…anymore so than when you allegedly worked as a New York state bureaucrat during the Cuomo years when NY was running multi-billion dollar deficits and were faced with spiraling unemployment. By the way, now that you are an “elder statesman” and we are all supposed to bow to your expertise, what do you propose to do to bolster our economy in Maine here in the 21st century?
You are right Brandon..as you can see most folk speaking here are right on the pulse of truth..that is the beauty and magic of it all..no one owns the truth..it shines out and speaks all by itself whether I turn up to do my part or not. It shines out and speaks all over the place..
There is nothing “alleged” about my 11 years on the Baking board or any other part of my background..all public record..all very discoverable, as you well know,having checked it out yourself!!!
How was dinner last night? Nice food? Good company at the Sea Dog? Who was at your table??
You are living in a fantasy world if you think the anti-highway mob speaks nothing but the truth. Another thing you should realize is that you have nothing to brag about being a New York bureaucrat in a state government that ran up billions of dollars in red ink, and watched helplessly as multitudes of people hunted for non-existent jobs. Sounds like you are championing your same ineffective policies here in Maine. Given your record, why should anyone choose to believe you over Vigue when it comes to job creation and growing an economy?
Brandon,
By targeting me in these East West Highway discussions you are totally missing the powerful reality that I am not the creator or mover of this massive grass roots uprising not just against Vigue and his wacky highway but against the continued control of Maine by a profiteering community destroying, job robbing bunch of speculative north county landholders.
Whether I turn up here every day or not the hundreds and hundreds who made Douglas too scared to even turn up at the Sea Dog do last night are still on Vigue and this crazy highway and still all over the corporatocracy. Nothing will get by hem
They are fully empowered. Fully engaged. I am only on the sidelines..a cheerleader. It is nothing to do with me.
What was dessert at the Sea dog last night Brandon? Yummy” good value for $35?
As always, you invent your “facts,” Lindsey. You have no way of knowing that there are “hundreds and hundreds” of opponents. There have been no statewide polls or even regional polls that I know of to deliver those statistics. You just pull fantasy figures out of the air and then insist that they are the “truth.” By the way, I’m not “targeting” you. As I’ve said before, when you make a claim that seems outlandish, I choose to rebut you. It is simply democracy and freedom of speech in action.
You can’t be that out of it Brandon Can you?? Did it never ocurr to you we all know each other and are in touch with each other?
I am just one tiny little voice in all this and even I am in touch with so many who have contacted me from these blogs and who have put in touch with the larger group. I also continue one on one with everyone who has contacted me and not just on this issue..on other issues of corporate control of Maine’s legislative and electoral process.
You don’t seem to get Brandon that this is a true grass roots, indigenous effort..No one is following marching orders or telling others what to say or what to think. These are hundreds and hundreds of awake engaged aware citizens speaking their own minds from their own hearts. our numbers grow minute by minute. Our presence is and will be felt more and more.
You have to keep up Brandon.
I am no ring leader. No leader of any kind. Just one voice doing what everyone else is doing with equal or better effect than me..
If I disappeared tomorrow it would all go on just as it is just as strong just as effective.
“…a true grass roots, indigenous effort.”
Even if, as you say, there are “hundreds” of people in your little circle of loud, rude protesters…compare that to the 1,328,188 people who live in Maine. Makes your grass roots coalition seem pretty impotent by comparison, doesn’t it? Better yet, compare your hundreds of protesters to the 53,800 Mainers who are unemployed as of July 2012, and your “indigenous effort” seems like a drop in the bucket. That is, unless you are adept at pulling fantastic “facts” out of thin air and parading them around as “The Truth,” which I’ll admit you are very skillful at doing, at least among those who don’t examine closely the things that you say.
Did you get the Cliff notes in school? Or did you read the books and digest the material?
I’m a voracious reader… why do you ask?
I am totally out of patience with the tyranny of the ignorant. Time to say what it is.
Egad’s, someone has done their homework on both sides of the border. That alone should tell the Maine legislature that this Highway is not in anyone’s best interest’s. Even the Canadian’s now know that this is a loser !
Mike, you need to do your homework…which you should have done back in the fourth grade when the rest of your class was learning the proper use of the apostrophe.
Your studies are old… they don’t take into consideration the unprecedented expansion of the Panama Canal, for example, and the resulting worldwide shift in shipping cargo to the Eastern Seaboard, where Maine has some of the deepest water on the seaboard to handle a new generation of deep draft cargo vessels. While other ports up and down the east coast are preparing for the influx of cargo, Maine is sitting on its hands, thanks in part to the “we can’t do anything to improve our economy so why try?” crowd that we see here on these blogs in small but loud groups.
Sigh. The Panama Canal is not in Maine. The deep draft cargo vessels aren’t our concern either. Let them offload at the other ports. I’m sure they will have a job for you down there Brandon. I’m sure you are very very good at what you do.
You are giving up on understanding the issues here, and I regret that. I hope your economic situation improves, somehow…I truly do. I’m an old Mainer too, who has worked hard all my life, and I don’t like to see honest, hardworking, fellow citizens beaten down by the bad economy. Good luck…
Brandon, letsbehonestforonce’s (wow, that’s a mouthful) comment shows the tide you are swimming against.
“The Panama Canal is not in Maine”; “The deep draft cargo vessels aren’t our concern either”; “Let them offload at other ports.”
No wonder Maine is a backwater. If we had every single advantage, we’d either be too stuck in the past to realize it, or too much like the out-of-state trust funders to responsibly use the advantage.
Good luck trying to be a faint flicker of reasonableness. There is precious little of it out here.
The law that Peter got passed states that the State of Maine must provide 50% of the construction cost by cosigning bonds for this private highway
So, we the people take the risk, and Vigue and his backers take the profit. Nice work if you can get it.
Where are you getting this stuff, Buttons? Vigue has consistently stated in his meetings (at least those covered by the papers) that this investment is strictly private, and that the government would not be involved beyond the required environmental permitting. Even the cost of the $300,000 study would be turned back over to the state.
“You must not realize that Canada cannot build the necessary connector…”
And you know this how?
They dont. they are just spouting off..a private company with private money isnt going to waste it without doing their homework first. only government with their endless supply of pilferred and printed funny money would be so foolish.
The only jobs this road will create will be a couple gas station attendants and a fast food restaurant or two.
That’s right.
This is SnakeOil and Asphalt, nothing less.
.
Vigue’s got the route map hidden away in his office, can’t promise what’s really going to be running down the middle of his corridor — oil pipeline? — and can’t give numbers on the jobs. And how many jobs are there for Canadian truckers and 7-11 cashiers at the exits? And if the mills are really going to come back, put the money in existing routes or rail.
This is a boondoggle, they keep harping on it, there is a woodchuck in the woodpile somewhere, there is nothing up there, they have RT 9 to maintain. There are 40 mph roads existing in areas up there, there is some other reason for this. Also, if the road did not pan out, who would get stuck holding the maintenance bill?? What about the animals?? Is there gonna be north animals and south animals?? I can see a lot of roadkill.
What goods?
Oh, just our trees we need to breathe, and our clean water we need to survive, and perhaps some dirty tar sands oil and waste that need to be disposed of somewhere along the way (Juniper Ridge?) Before too long this state will be turned into an industrial waste land. Might I mention the hydrofracking fields that exist on both sides of the state, on either side of the corridor? Bad, bad business….. go away!!!
We are so far from an industrial wasteland that I can’t begin to comment on your ridiculous post. We have no economic development in this State and thus, no jobs and no future, because of idiotic comments and viewpoints like yours. A highway is a highway – nothing more and nothing less. If it can be placed in a location that provides benefit to the State and its citizens, we should be all for it. Otherwise, I suggest you get some tools and start tearing out the road to your house. What do we need a road for. You can walk!
Orono Molly..your point about the gas fracking permits either side of our borders is a critically important one. Geologic substrate don’t conform to international or state borders and we have the exact same shale connecting there two dots..the two existing sites under the permit holder who invented gas fracking.
Gas fracking ( injecting LPG instead of water to split rock and release natural gas has created yield at the new Brunswick site that is viable and competitive price wize with water fracked natural gas..it is unavoidable that Maine speculative landholders will be looking to gas frack right here in Maine..
It is a real and present danger.
Apparently someone trying to improve the BDN’s reputation has an even-handed source of news has changed the title of Dawn Gagnon’s story. The print edition of this story is “Vigue pushes east-west road proposal to forest industry.” Now it says “Peter Vigue takes east-west highway gospel to forest resources group.” Although this group “invited” Vigue to speak to them on this subject, the BDN originally decides to suggest that he is “pushing” his agenda onto them? In my understanding of the word “push,” it is usually used by rational writers to indicate that the subject is not necessarily a welcome one by its audience? Was there any evidence of this in the piece itself? Now, they insert the word “gospel,” as if there is a religious overtone to the east-west highway. It’s amazing to me how the mainstream media will use slightly inaccurate wording to convey a message that they want to “push” onto their audience!
Astute and important point Pure Loci101..and see my post above providing a more accurate picture of exactly who this group, Maine Forest Products is..took me about 10 minutes to see exactly who they are ..why didn’t this reporter do that?
These are the Trojan Horse Builders who brought or supported every bit of trash into our
legsilature this past session..they are the plutonomy the speculators, the profiteers ..th e story is told both at the national website of Forest Products Resources and at the legislative watch section of Maine Forest Products.
And why didn’t they mention the names of the state legislators who were there..would make it much easier to identify who may already have swallowed the poison pill.
By profiteers you must mean employers of a strong majority of rural folks north of Bangor who then spend their money on goods and services which support the rest of the community. What terrible folks! I guess we can’t be super enlightened under employed and underworked anti-business beaurocrats with our heads where the sun don’t shine. I guess it should be to the welfare line for the rest of us. Keep you opinions south of Augusta where they belong and leave us up here be.
If this road was about Maine people and community and jobs it would be good. But it’s not. Beside Peter wanting Maine taxpayers cosign half the project he is not telling who he is working for and who or what country will hold the title on the Road
Buttons, the cosign thing sounds made up… you should cite your source for that so we can determine if there is any factual basis for your claim.
jmil85..I wear my garndfather’s “pulp sulfite and paper workers” pin sometimes..he was superintenent of the Mill in Lincoln through out the depression until his retirement in ’51 ( or ’52) . I grew up in lincon to the age of 7. My family has been in miane, mostly well north of Augusta as pioneers and entrepreneurs since the late 1700’s.
I care deeply about the northern counties and the State;s very poor and incomplete response to the mass abandonment of pulp and paper mills who had been major regional employers. They responded only to “liquidation Harvesting” and ignored the other issues of massive speculation and profiteering tat were clearly on the horizon. They made no effort to understand the implications of this profiteering on local communities, local cultures and local jobs.
The folk behind Maine Forest Products are those profiteers. These are people looking to manipulate Maine law and Maine legislators to maximize profits without providing any benefits to Mianne communities, without re employing Mainers out of work, without providing jobs for young Mainers entering the work force.
I am a Mainer through and through. I believe in the resilience,character, integrity, hard work and ingenuity of Mainers to rebuild their own communities if the Sate would make that a priority instead of giving it away every day to te corpotocarcy of Maine Forest Products.
Funny, I didn’t see any indication that Sen Thomas, a very prominent legislator in the front lines of this sales pitch since the beginning, was there.
Perhaps, since he realized that his legislative seat is in great jeapordy, due primarily to his (previously outspoken)support of this monstrosity, he has hunkered down in hiding someplace to wait out the Nov election, and hope for the best.
Also, nobody is going to open manufacturing plants in Northern Maine, and pay $15 to $20 per hour for labor, when the same items can be manufactured in China for .50/hr. What can Mr Vigue’s “road” do to fix that problem? The area is not going to revitalize as long as there is no demand for highly paid labor, no matter how many roads one builds.
all good points countryboy8 See above..Maine Forest Products has the answer..they managed to win 100% approval from the Labor Committee for a bill to facilitate wider use of foreign labor.
“Maine Statutory Initiatives LD 1383 An Act To Improve the Process by Which Logging Contractors Hire Legal Foreign Workers The Maine Legislature’s Labor,
Commerce, Research and Economic Development Committee voted
unanimously Ought To Pass as Amended on LD 1383, now titled an Act To
Promote a Qualified U.S. Logging Workforce and Ensure Adequate Wood Supply for Maine Mills. ” ( from the website of Maine Forest Products)
The agenda of Maine Forest Products is all about speculation and profiteering..it’s all bad for Maine, all bad for Maine communities ad all bad for creating , protecting and growing jobs for Mainers. The change in title to this pet project of Maine Forest Products says it all.
Trojan Horse Builders.
Beware anything that comes from them or is supported by them.
Lindsay, what does the agenda of the Maine Forest Products Council have to do with the success or failure of an EW Highway? You’re just out slinging mud, as usual, and seeing what might stick.
Slinging mud to see what sticks is your specialty not mine, Brandon I provided a link to their own web site which speaks for itself
re ipse loquitor
my summaries, characterizations don’t establish who these people are and what they are about..their own web site..their own words do that..Any one can read that and draw their own conculsions. That is exactly why I posted it .
Actually Vigue’s presentaion there last evening pointed me to a source of the most disgusting trashy legislation and administrative agendas I have ever seen in 33+ years of public administration..Pure junk. Pure Corporatocracy. For me a treasure trove..the end of the rainbow..the source we can point to as the chief architects of the worst trojan horses ever dragged onto the floor of our legislature.
How was the dinner Brandon,,nice..what was the entree?
“…the most disgusting trashy legislation and administrative agendas I have ever seen in 33+ years of public administration…”
There’s Lindsay’s vaunted public administration experience, front and center once again, thanks to her own horn tooting. Was the Forest Products Council agenda even more trashy and disgusting than the agendas you presided over in New York that ran up billions of dollars in deficits and spiraling unemployment?
Homework Brandon hoemwork..you must do your homewrk if you want to be a player.
I wasn’t Governor, Brandon. I wasn’t Mayor.
What I was ( and am) is a matter of public record..even down to the senate hearings approving my appointment to the banking board..it’s all there.
I had no oversight for any budgets or any budget policy.
Homework Brandon. Homework
If you wish to have any credibility at all you must do your homework.
And your comments have to show that you’ve done some homework.
Oh… so all of your vaunted expertise that you keep bragging about here in the highway debate didn’t amount to a hill of beans when it came to controlling astronomical deficits and massive unemployment rates in your old home of New York? Thanks for clearing that up. Now then, once again, why should we believe what you have to say about an EW Highway compared to what someone like Vigue (a proven job creator) has to say?
“The area is not going to revitalize as long as there is no demand for highly paid labor…”
A greatly expanded and busy port facility at Eastport would have plenty of opportunity for creation of highly paid labor, not to mention all the ancillary businesses and jobs that could crop up to support the port throughout the region. Getting the cargo from the port to the markets in the Midwest is key though, and an EW Highway is one potential answer. In any case, it’s a more provocative idea than simply saying, “there’s nothing we can do in Maine to create good paying jobs, so why even try?” … and that’s precisely what all the anti-highway people here say. They’ve got a hundred reasons why the highway plan won’t work, but haven’t got one logical thing to say about what will work to improve our weak economy.
All this guy needs to do is show us a detailed map of the proposed route. Doing so would immediately answer any questions that may exist about the need for the use of eminent domain and it would allow us to make an informed decision. Anything short of showing us the map is just more talking.
Don’t you read the articles before commenting? The article says the designing and ROW acquisition phase is not completed yet.
Because it can’t exist without the taking of private property. That is why it’s not complete.
You don’t know that to be true. If eminent domain is not used, as has been pledged, then people’s land values will rise, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Vigue said words to that effect at the Dover Foxcroft meeting.
We should start with the rail service first as it will benefit Maine. The highway seems to benefit Canada more than Maine. We need rail service for goods now or they will be greatly increased to us.
Some of the companies sponsoring this road are oil and gas companies. That’s who stands to benefit from trucks running on this road. I can’t see any reason why we don’t revive the rail service. The beds are already there, except for a small spur up north and it has been said that to build that spur and restore the rails would be a fraction of the cost of building the roads. As someone said above, the woodchuck in the woodpile is the sponsorship by oil companies who want to sell fossil fuels to run the trucks.
“I can’t see any reason why we don’t revive the rail service.”
If rail is so great, then why haven’t the rail companies invested in their own track and rolling stock, rather than letting Maine rail service plunge into the toilet? Why don’t Maine businesses choose to use rail, rather than trucking? My guess is that the trucking industry has beat the rail industry in the competition for Maine freight.
Private East-West highways already exist between the Quebec border to Millinocket and the Quebec border to Ashland.
All that is needed is asphalt and toll booths.
Anyone else feeling Vigue fatigue ? Just go away, already !
According to the article, Vigue was invited to speak at this gathering, the newspaper decided to cover it, and then you and your anti-highway chums showed up to read the article and comment. If you’re fatigued, then quit reading, already!
Give it up Peter. I would think you would know by now that we don’t want your road.
Keep up the good fight, Peter. Don’t let a few loud, uninformed “foes” keep you from doing what is right for Maine’s economy.
“Some concerns cited by foes” Foes? Really? Could we use some more loaded terminology in our journalism, please? Tell us what you really think!
Use the existing rail line. Piggyback.
Here’s who these folk at Maine Forest Products are..Trojan horse builders who cloak their profiteering schemes in false promises of public benefits and jobs:http://www.maineforest.org/action/legislative_bills
They were lobbysists for, iniattors of, supporters writing suggested letters of support for their membership, on every ALEC type bill n the legislature this year..the mininig bill, the attempt to dismantle LURC, the regulatory takings bill. C heck out especially their eager pressing for a bill to make it easier to hire foreign workers.
http://www.maineforest.org/docs/New%20Folder/FAR-Feb-27-Mar-2.pdf
“MaineSatutory Initiatives LD 1383 An Act To Improve the Process by Which Logging
Contractors Hire Legal Foreign Workers
” The Maine Legislature’s Labor, Commerce, Research and Economic Development Committee voted unanimously Ought To Pass as Amended on LD 1383, now titled an Act To Promote a Qualified U.S. Logging Workforce and Ensure Adequate Wood Supply for Maine Mills. ”
Note the hall mark change in title for all trojan horse bills:the old title said exactly what they are about..the new title suggests this is somehow good for Maine when it is really more of the banannaism of Maine.
Vigue by the way gas been in the news more than once for fiddling labor rules on contracts to hire foreign workers.
This year in the legislature we the people need to make it a “poison pill” for any legislator to carry water for these profiteers..to sponsor any bill of theirs or to vote in favor of any bill of theirs.
Do you all think this bill deserved a unanimous “ought to pass”? If not then you’d better get on it or it will pass.
It is time to set fire to all these trojan horses parked in our communities. in our backyards and expose the contents and the architects.
“
Theres Rats in the corn,
Rats in the Corn I Tell Ya!
Poison Pill?
I suggest Decon!
:>))) you go dlbrt
lap, lap, lap…
“Vigue by the way gas been in the news more than once for fiddling labor rules…”
Show us your evidence of Vigue fiddling with labor rules to hire foreign workers, don’t just shout out your accusations and run away. You don’t have to go far in Google to find that Vigue has employed thousands of MAINERS in his career, and to this day, is looking to find ways to hire more Mainers, including doing all he can to educate new workers with the skills they’ll need to acquire good-paying jobs. What are you doing to help Maine’s economy, Lindsay? And how many MAINERS have you employed in your career?
People who NEVER do their homowrk are bit unwise to publicly take on peple who ALWAYS do their homework
meticulously
consistently
carefully
here you go Brandon
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/top/documents/02723930.asp
Want more????
Let me guess..next yuo’ll question Lance’s integrity ??? That’s your usual.
When you troll with the wrong lure..you catch the wrong fish
And no..I will not do your homework for you..you are the laziest blogger in this community..do your own homework. ( That’s what I used to say to the boys in my physics class who wanted to copy my lab book)
Anyone who wanted to copy your lab book must have been desperate indeed. Your “homework” consists of finding the most biased, left-wing, pro-union sources that exist in Maine, and pointing to them as “The Truth.” I don’t need you to do my homework for me. All I need is for you to identify the esoteric sources of your misinformation, so that the people who read this blog will have the opportunity to get some other viewpoint besides your extremely biased one.
I got A+ and an invite to an invitation only advanced chemistry class next year..they all got well c’s and worse
Yes. fun. let’s see your homework Brandon..let’s see your list of my estoteric sources which have mostly been actual links to :
(a) Cianbros own words in press , public appearances and the notorious Louis Berger report,..their own words
(b) the actual highway privatization statute and its actual official as recorded legsilative history
(c) the Can Am Report 2010
(d) the 1999 studies and Angus King;s and the MDOT commissioner’s comments on them from the last time the legislature forced a study of this wacky highway
(e) highly regarded global experts who debunk Vigue’s wacky claims that the Panama Canel widening will be aboon to Maine if only we bid his pue in the sky road in time
(f) court records ( in the Stud Mill Rd)
I am guessing by estoeric you mean Lance Tapley and Colin Woodard? Both esteemed and highly regarded journalists who have never once to my knowledge been faulted for misleading or inaccurate reporting.
Yes Brandon,
Let’s see your list of my estoeric and biased sources
That should be very very very interesting. Can’t wait.
Your claims about labor law rigging by Vigue amounted to one article by perhaps the most notorious left-wing pro-union rag in Maine, The Portland Phoenix, and it’s notoriously biased anti-highway “columnist” (he certainly doesn’t write like an objective reporter) Lance Tapley. There is all sorts of evidence in your comments on these threads where you rely on biased sources for your information, or where you misinterpret the information presented in sources to suit your needs. You should have stuck with chemistry.
Don’t you ever ever ever do even the easy homework Brandon?
The article on Cianbro’s labor fiddle was not by Lance Tapley…
and this paper of record was not the only one to report it. Weren’t you in Bangor then Brandon. It was a big issue and reported several times in BDN. ( No I won’t look it up for you..if you want to be a player..do your homework and turn it in )
Here’s one .different state Cianbro doing the same thing
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/05/03/news/new_haven/a1jobs.txt
Match Cianbro consistent cheat on labor with the priority Maine Forest Products put on the on the bill to make it easier to hire foreign labor.
Job Creator?
When Vigue says
“maine jobs”
better make doubly sure that they are jobs for Mainersand not insourced cheap labor.
Lindsay, as you would know if you studied your own “homework” you would see that Lance Tapley is excerpted in the piece, which is all I have to know to ascertain that this is just another extreme left-wing pro-union Lance Tapley-style Portland Phoenix hatchet job.
And the New Haven article that you posted later…. where in that article is there any description of rule twisting by Vigue? That article is about a lot of union bosses being mad because Cianbro chose to employ non-union workers (probably from Maine) instead of buckling to the demands of the unions. Your own extreme pro-union bias is very evident in your postings.
Brandon, as I constantly remind you, truth counts around here.
The “tapley excerpt” you cite as discrediting the article, was from an article Lance wrote that was featured in its entirety at Canbro’s own website:
“But actually, there is government money involved in this project. As was pointed out by Phoenix contributor Lance Tapley in his July 2002 Portland Monthly article ” Buoys from Brazil ” (the article is reproduced on Cianbro’s own Web site)
So apparently Cianbro doesn’t share your blanket bias against Lance Tapley.
The facts as reported in the article are a matter of record.
The issue was that the wage rates and justification for using foreign workers instead of Maine workers did not follow procedure as required by statute. Unfortunately the court had no jusridiction to intervene but the facts as reported in the Phoenix article are undisputed:
http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/getopn.pl?OPINION=03-2040.01A
“The dispute centers on the construction of two oil rigs in the harbor of Portland, Maine. Between August and October of 2002, Cianbro Corporation (“Cianbro”), an industrial contractor, applied to the United States Department of Labor (“U.S. DOL”) and the Maine Department of Labor (“Maine DOL”) for H-2B temporary labor certifications for approximately one hundred and twenty foreigners to be employed as structural and pipe welders on the rigs. Before issuing the certifications, the U.S. DOL and Maine DOL were required to calculate the prevailing wages for the jobs in question, in order to ensure that such workers would not be paid wages less than those paid to American workers. See 20 C.F.R. � 656.40. This they did by using a wage calculus set forth in the McNamara-O’Hara Service Contract Act (“SCA”), 41 U.S.C. �� 351-358, and related regulations. That was a mistake. The wage rate should have been calculated by reference to the Davis-Bacon Act, 40 U.S.C. �� 3141-3148, rather than the SCA. (2) Although notified of the error by letter, the U.S. DOL did not rectify the problem before issuing temporary labor certifications to Cianbro for the admission of fifty pipe welders and ten structural welders.”
Homework Brandon. Homework!!!!
And truth truth truth!!!!
Truth, Lindsay…. truth! Even as your biased Phoenix article points out before nonobjectively proclaiming Cianbro’s position as “seemingly cagey,” the point is made that there were not enough local workers applying for the Cianbro work to accomplish the project, which by the way, Cianbro went out and brought back to Maine…the unions didn’t bring that work to Maine. So after hiring most of the 800 workers needed from the local labor pool (another point you conveniently omit is the significant local employment that Cianbro brought to the Portland waterfront) the government approved the hiring of 60 foreign workers to fill out the roles. The criteria for that hiring was determined by the government, not by Cianbro. Lastly, the case was dismissed by the courts, not only due to the court not having jurisdiction, but also because the unions who brought the suit were found by the court to have no legal standing to bring the suit. Truth, Lindsay…. the whole truth.
“In law, standing or locus standi, is the term for the ability of a party to demonstrate to the court sufficient connection to and harm from the law or action challenged to support that party’s participation in the case.”
As is your tendency, you present only the part of the story that supports your bias, and conveniently omit the rest of the factual information that discredits your biased viewpoint.
Brandon..I am sure even you understand that a lack of jurisdiction ( and in this case.lack of opportunity for remedy) does not detract from the facts..and the bottom line
Cianbro worked a fiddle to get approval for foreign workers to fill jobs at lower wages that should have gone to Mainers at fair wages..
simple truth
simple truth
Lindsay, even you should understand that in the neighborhood of 740 to 780 Mainers worked on that job which Cianbro went out and brought back to Maine — and I doubt that many of them complained about not receiving a “fair” wage. Only hard core union supporters like yourself would be able to find a way to complain about work opportunities that materialized from nothing due to the hard work, risk-taking and vision of the entrepreneurs who brought that work to Portland.
and without Cianbros’ successful fiddle to give foreign workers jobs local mainers needed and wanted and were qualified dor 100+ more would have bee employed. Those 100 + jobs mattered to that community.
That’s what counts to us Mainers Brandon. Fair business practices. Fair and honest opporunity for Maine workers
What matters to you is union domination of the workforce.
Cianbro brought 800 good paying jobs to the Portland waterfront for Maine workers, and had to hire 60 more from away when the local labor pool was exhausted, according to one side of the article you tout as the gospel truth of this incident. But there you sit in your ivory tower, not producing a single job for Mainers, and casting stones at the job creation efforts of others…claiming that the job creators didn’t do enough. By the way, what IS your plan to bring “fair and honest” opportunity for Maine workers?
Furthermore, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if you have no qualms about union-controlled jobs in Maine hiring union brothers from away rather than employing non-union Mainers.
There are two things we can all predict with relative certainty, Lindsay. You will avoid ever saying what your plan would be to improve our economy. And you will avoid saying anything detrimental about how unions will hire union brothers from away before hiring non-union Mainers…all while you talk about how important Maine jobs are for Maine people. In-sourcing to elbow Mainers out of jobs that they want and need is just fine as long as the unions are doing it, right Lindsay?
So Brandon, let me be sure I understand your position.
You are in favor of the foreign workers bill that already has unanimous ought to pass from the labor committee and will come up for a vote this year? You support that? Even though it is about giving awaydesperately needed jobs that Mainers are qualified to fill?
We aren’t talking union here Brandon, We are talking prevailing wage for a specific job in a specific area.
It’s ok with you Brandon to undercut Maine workers who need jobs by bringing in cheap foreign labor?
You forgot Atlantica. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantica_%28trade_zone%29
Oh Lindsay, you are so good at what you do. Persistence in the face of relentless namecalling. Brandon is showing everything about himself and so are you. The thing is you are respected because it’s obvious you are not talking out of your ……
“Oh Lindsay, you are so good at what you do. Persistence in the face of relentless namecalling.”
Honestforonce, here’s what your respected hero has to say about name calling, in her own words:
“…many of us have decided that the best way to handle trolls is to name them and call them out. Well..and I have decided on that policy with Vigue too..say what it is..name it.”
It takes some brass for you to praise someone for doing the thing that you deplore.
Lindsay claims to care about the importance of civility in these public discussions, while casting insults at those who have the gall to keep an open mind about this highway or to question her conclusions. Her approach can be summed up thusly: “Hey, you crazy delusional leaches and rats, your name-calling is bad for our discussion.”
She claims her critics help her to advance her arguments by “taunting” her and “stalking” her on the blogs. Good. I’d rather that she has the opportunity to exercise her First Amendment rights (and to describe her questionable conclusions in public where people can scrutinize her views and critique them) than to allow her previous questionable conclusions to go unchallenged. A debate is not an exercise in stalking. Lincoln didn’t “stalk” Douglas in the slavery debate. Lincoln only made sure that Douglas’ flawed arguments did not go unchallenged.
letsbehonestforonce
(love your nom de plum and endorse that notion..especially here)
Brandon actually serves my purpose here very well in many many ways.
My purpose is to complete the story never told by the local papers and to bring to the fore the core public policy issues and try to get people to think and talk about those. In this case the story isn’t just that Vigue is still pitching the pitch..it is who Maine Forest Products, It’s how their policies and legisative priorities mirror Vigue’s businness practices and what that means for what may lie under the rug for all of us on a project of this magnitude..his delusionally grand East West Highway and all its false foundations.
Every time Brandon, my faithful predictable nemeiss stalks me and speaks he gives me a chance to go deeper into the public policy issues I am trying to bring out into the open..on this exchange the trojan horse builders techniques of insourcing wherever possible while holding out a promise of much needed jobs for Mainers in struggling small communities.
This insourcing of mostly Canadian workers is a hallmark for Vigue and and a clear major policy agenda for Maine Forest Products. That juncture and his speaking there is very very significant to me and I mean to get people to think about that and talk about that and more importantly decide whether they want the foreign workers bill to pass or like that practice.
So when Brandon “taunts” me in his very predictable style, every post he makes gives me an opportunity to bring more information out for folks to think about. Insourcing is a key tactic of the plutonomy, the corporatocracy. I want people to understand what insourcing is. I want people to understand and talk about that. I want people to possess that to an extent that they no longer blindly assume that when JD Irving says mining at Bald Mountain would bring 300 jobs that only very few and the very lowest and scummiest jobs would be local and for unemployed or underemployed Mainers..hat will carry over to the next discussion, the next bill offered that furthers the bananaism of Maine.
The final reason Brandon’s presence here is a kind of public service is precisely the way he speaks and what he says. That “talk” those ways of “processing” what is happening in our world is a majority dynamic. People all over America at their dining room tables, in their bars and gathering places, at work are speaking to one another like that. It is a reality shaping and enabling the corporatocracy of Maine and of America. Sounds different in the ingroup..looks and sounds different out in the open in a mixed crowd as here and his feloows possibly can see themselves reflcted unfavorably in Brnadon.
We can’t just ignore and turn away from that. That is our reality. It is a fixture in our legislature at the state and federal level. Brandon puts that on display here everyday.
I am a great believer in the common wisdom. I believe we can get there very simply by having access to more reliable factual information and encouraging people to think and talk about it outside of meme and ideology and party affiliation.
I can’t believe eminent domain wouldn’t be used. You think they’re going to “dogleg” a major highway around properties that didn’t want to sell?
And who makes the final approval/disapproval for this boondoggle? Is it the people of Maine or the politicians? Who?
Was the $300,000 for an actual feasibility study or is it Vigue’s fee for his sales pitches?
mooselake
MDOT has said to me in writing that the feasibility study was for their own benfit and that there is no active proposal under the privatization statute (Ttle 23 Section 4251) by Vique. Macquarie or anyone else.
However, they got only one response which they deemed non responsive and although the costs details were not made available to me (o nly the technical proposal) I gather that it it would cost way more than $300K to do any kind of meaningful feasibility study. So it was stalled by MDOT long long before Douglas claimed credit for stallig it ( verifiable from my correspondence with MDOT or your own inquiry) Thomas had nothing to do with stalling it.
“We have no intention of taking people’s property, we have no intention of impacting people in a negative manner,” he told association members Thursday night. “All I ask you to do is this: Look at our track record. Look at how we treat our people. Look at how we treat Maine companies and look at our history,” he said referring to Cianbro Corp.’s history in Maine.
Uh huh. “The road to hell is paved with (good) intentions.”
This road is only for the benefit of Canada. Maine is in the way for Canada to transport its own products.
it is better to be at a crossroads than a dead end. Too bad this has to hit 95 north of Bangor. Bangor is a logical location for the “crossroads”. hopefully they extend 395 to it someday.
One also needs to look at the provision’s regarding Maine’s obligation’s to Cianbro when Cianbro can’t buy a piece of land they deem needed to see the where and when of this situation developing. Cianbro’s gonna tell Maine to use eminent domain to obtain the land or Cianbro’s gonna threaten to take Maine to court and force the Court’s to order Maine to use eminent domain to obtain the land for Cianbro’s ‘highway’ as is required under the Act’s provision’s of Maine’s obligation’s covered under The Act. That is clearly in The Act under any number of it’s provision’s.
And to add a little ‘spice’ to this, add this to the equation. If the Highway is a totally owned asset of Cianbro’s, what’s to prevent Cianbro from selling it a Foreign Government if it gets a good enough offer ? Maine has no say as the easement is, under the terms of The Act, independent of the sovereignty of jurisdiction of Maine. Intention in the face of Corporate survival is way back in the pack of consideration’s when ‘crunch time’ comes.
What makes you such a soothsayer, Mike?
That would be Title 23 Section 4251..an outrageously bad piece of legsilation affecting every road and bridge in the state of Maine for which there is no rational action except repeal..
Just how is this GOP-land grab supposed to reduce the cost of transporting wood to Old Town – when it doesn’t go through there?
Vigue thinks we are rubes.
Yessah
it is going to cross I95 fairly close to Old Town, isn’t it?
Depends how “close” is “fairly close”? and whom do you believe about the route. I heard it was crossing 95 near Millinocket, which isn’t “close” to Old Town UNLESS you are from west Texas.
it is supposed to follow the stud mill road to Costigan. That would put it intersecting with I95 very close to Old Town.
With $4./gal gas? Not bloody likely. We’re done if we don’t go back to
taking care of ourselves. Do you really think these “prosper in the
evolving global economy” people even dream of us at night?
“Given its location, if Maine is to prosper in the evolving global economy, it must take advantage of EVERY potential opportunity that it can.” There you go folks, the President and CEO of Cianbro Corporation just endorsed the Maine North Woods National Park!
i support the National Park and an east-west highway.
Please let’s not do anything to create jobs and improve our economy.We just need more E.B.T cards and meth clinics to survive in Maine.This is what happened after thirty years of benefits for votes.Let’s not work when we can live off of others.
No, everything is fine right now! The mills will never close! Eco-tourism will support the entire northern half of the state!
Maine, “Open for Welfare”……pfffffttt…..who needs business……
A utility corrodor will not help Maine, anyone with any common sense can see that. The highway Bill excludes the public from having any say over the 2000 foot wide swath through their State. Why is that anyway?
Do you actually go to any of these events or actually read up on the project at all? I assume not because you constantly post nothing but lies and half-truths.
It will help Maine by creating jobs before, during, and after construction and by having a portion of the revenues from each toll paid into the state coffers. You guys are so backward with the idea of “No” to anything, it’s no wonder this state is dying and the population is moving elsewhere. If you prefer more and more people living on food stamps and handouts, keep saying no.
Economic development, including infrastructure development such as this highway, is what puts a roof over your head and food in your mouth.
Wind the clock back a few years and let’s say no to I-95 and Rt. 1. What do we need them for?
Nine, please, read the Act in it’s entirety. Maine is not going to get one dime from any toll on this proposed road as the road is COMPLETELY OWNED AND OPERATED BY CIANBRO, and Maine has ZERO means of doing anything since the Highway’s easement is, for the moment, supposedly owned, and now no longer, subject to any Maine law, including tax law’s. In short, Cianbro is now a sovereign authority and answerable to no one except the Fed’s at the border crossing’s.
As far as the supposed fuel tax’s are concerned, the fuel tax’s are gonna only be the Fed’s since Maine has no authority to levy a Fuel Sales Tax on it’s own. The construction job’s will last only a year or 2 and then it’s all Cianbro’s people coming over from Canada for the maintenance job’s. Even the State Police are gonna be cut out of this since Maine law isin’t legal on the Highway. The Act made that VERY CLEAR with regard to the “shall be exempt from any and all criminal, administrative and civil law” provision of the Act.
Please provide a link to the act you speak of. Your claims are very outlandish and sound quite honestly crazy. If you can back up your claims with a link i can go to i’d be happy to look.
This where Lindsay is good at this. She sent me the entire Act by pdf but it got crunched in a defrag. But the Maine Revisor of Statute’s in Augusta can provide you with the appropriate title. Be ready for some very serious time in reading this. That and getting into some very heavy duty nitty gritty since the eminent domain issue and the surrender of Maine’s sovereignty, specifically the criminal, civil and administrative staute’s, are spelled out in one very specific, but conveiniently hidden, line of the Statute. I almost passed out when I saw this as this one line makes the entire easement a safe haven for anyone violating Maine law since it makes Maine law invalid in the easement by virtue of Maine surrendering all legal sovereignty, and it’s law’s, to Cianbro thru the Act. Confusing I will admit but it’s there. That it was written, and hidden, so well tells me that there’s a lot more here going on than anyone will admit to.
Lindsay, this is where you step in please since you know the M.S.R.A. provision’s so well on the Internet……………
It’s alright Lindsay directed me to it and read it…
Title 23 Section 4251…and none of the nonsense you spout is contained in it. For anyone that would like to read it…
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/23/title23sec4251.html
Renerman90
Mike’s interpretation is certainly “colorful” but I disagree that it is totally off base at its heart. For example, the act refers only to the financial capability of private owners under the statute..there is nothing that precludes ownership by a foreign government or agemcyof a foreign government. Another example..Mike is concerned that the PPP places many aspects of planning and permitting outside the law. The way he phrases it isn’t quite accurate, but he is correct that even though the sttaute doesn’t say so, it a project under the statute is an MDOT project and therefore “inherits” many of the benefits and attributes of a “public road” even if privately owned. This isn’t laid out in the statute..statutes can’t be read and understood the same way we read books or newspaper accounts but it is a fact that as an MDOT project it would have expedited permitting and all kinds of other benefits that accrue to public roads.
Also when Mike says “outside of law” or “having its own law” he is right in that public highway projects and projects using public funds are bound by labor laws designed to prevent insourcing and promote maximum use of qualified local labor.Unless the statute provides otherwise, and ours does not, use of non union and innsourced labor at below prevailing wages is almost a hallmark of PPP’s..it is one of the principal ways to maximize profits.
So when I say Mike’s interpretation of the statute is colorful but at its heart correct, these are the kinds of attributes of the statute that Mike is pointing to and that I agree are woefully deficient.
If we are going to be effective here in these blogs in collaboratively exploring and discussing key issues that affect the lives of Mainers ad the destinies of Maine communities we have to be a bit generous with one another, do more questioning and less judging, try more to to listen rather than condemn, be willing to let our beliefs about an issue grow and change as we learn more and have access to more information.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Both of your “interpretations” of what this law contains are not what it actually contains. Trying to distance yourself from a point of view that you have previously supported wholeheartedly, really shows how you and Mike have tried to pump up this particular issue form literally nothing into something to try and scare people.
renderman90
I have been consistent and factual in all my comments on title 23 section 4251. If you have an example that you think misrepresents the statute or it implications or how it came into being I would appreciate your calling it to my attention. I would say I have been meticulous about that.or certainly tried to be..
Also I have posed many questions directly to MDOT about the statute and about its possible use for the E/W highway and everything I have received in writing ( email) from MDOT I have faithfully and accurately relayed here in these blogs.
Additionally, before I realized we actually had this statute I had spent many weeks researching public private partnerships, studying the statutes of other states and the experience under those statutes. I have reported some of that at these blogs as well.
So I really don’t understand your comment at all as respects my comments on the E/W Highway project or the Highway Privatization Statute.
Mike is on his own and ,as all of us, has his own slant and his own take. I can’t answer for Mike only for myself which I am glad to do.
If the facts I have relayed here in these blogs are scary..that’s because the reality is scary..very scary..
“that’s because the reality is scary..very scary..”
Your twisting of the facts is what is scary, and that is your intended effect. But at least you have the integrity to disavow the massive amount of BS that your pal, Mike Kiernan, writes on these blogs.
You mean all this time you’ve been blabbing about The Act, and you’ve got to rely on your Mama to tell you what The Act says? C’mon Mike…
Don’t hold your breath on getting any specific answers from Mike Kiernan. He loves to make outlandish claims and then ignore the critique questions that come his way from skeptical observers.
Render man 90 itis title 23 section 4251..all mIke has said is straight from the legsilative record which nayone can obtain as I did and as Mike apparently did.
Her is the staute:
Maine
Statutes http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/23/title23sec4251.html
(jaw dropping eh???)
I am happy to send you the legislative history sent to me by the Law Library. Just email me.
Good work Lindsay. Thank you for representing our Maine interests so well.
The road will be neither owned nor operated by cianvro. you should probably hear what they have to say before blowing hot air.
Mike, I don’t want the Road, OK. This is not a Cianbro project.. This is Peters Baby. He is doing this for someone else. He will not disclose who the investers are or who will own the road if approved…
95 is a public highway.. Thank you. So is peter is offering the State some cash on the Deal???? sneaky I’d say. Were going to void the highway bill soon enough.
I’m withyou..lets; repeal title 23 Section 4251 right up front this session..through the legislature..lead by the same folk who bought us this very bad secret legislation.
they are public highways that the people of Maine can use , this road is not for the people of Maine to use. Do you see the difference. One I can drive to portland on the other I am not allowed on at all… Please tell me you can see the difference. It’s like having a brand new car in your driveway, but you will never be able to drive it because it belongs to some one else.. . I hope you understand this
I believe you are thoroughly mistaken about passenger vehicles not being allowed on the proposed highway. I haven’t heard any such thing. There have even been criticisms by opponents who say the toll for passenger vehicles would be high. It makes no sense that investors would turn away your toll money, and the money of millions of other motorists who might want to use the road.
95 and route 1 are public roads.. this highway is not for public use… Why would you want a road built through Maine that you cannot use.
I can use it. I would simply pay the toll where I enter the road and travel to the exit of my choice. Sort of like the turnpike!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone. From : Disqus Subject : [bdn] Re: Peter Vigue takes east-west highway gospel to forest resources group pushtheredbutton wrote, in response to Ninelake: 95 and route 1 are public roads.. this highway is not for public use… Why would you want a road built through Maine that you cannot use. Link to comment Ninelake wrote: It will help Maine by creating jobs before, during, and after construction and by having a portion of the revenues from each toll paid into the state coffers. You guys are so backward with the idea of “No”to anything, it’s no wonder this state is dying and the population is moving elsewhere. If you prefer more and more people living on food stamps and handouts, keep saying no.Economic development, including infrastructure development such as this highway, is what puts a roof over your head and food in your mouth.Wind the clock back a few years and let’s say no to I-95 and Rt. 1. What do we need them for? —– Options: Reply with “Like”to like this comment, or respond in the body to post a reply comment. To turn off notifications
I can use it. I would simply pay the toll where I enter the road and travel to the exit of my choice. Sort of like the turnpike!! Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone. From : Disqus Subject : [bdn] Re: Peter Vigue takes east-west highway gospel to forest resources group pushtheredbutton wrote, in response to Ninelake: 95 and route 1 are public roads.. this highway is not for public use… Why would you want a road built through Maine that you cannot use. Link to comment Ninelake wrote: It will help Maine by creating jobs before, during, and after construction and by having a portion of the revenues from each toll paid into the state coffers. You guys are so backward with the idea of “No”to anything, it’s no wonder this state is dying and the population is moving elsewhere. If you prefer more and more people living on food stamps and handouts, keep saying no.Economic development, including infrastructure development such as this highway, is what puts a roof over your head and food in your mouth.Wind the clock back a few years and let’s say no to I-95 and Rt. 1. What do we need them for? —– Options: Reply with “Like”to like this comment, or respond in the body to post a reply comment. To turn off notifications
Before this gets completely out of hand, PLEASE, everyone get a copy of the Highway Act and actually read it. For those of you budding UM Law School folk’s, take it apart, page by page, section by section, paragraph by paragraph if that’s what it takes, and see just what’s in the Act. See what Maine’s obligation’s are, what Maine surrender’s, what Cianbro’s obligation’s are and what they are going to be doing, without any State oversight, and what they are going to be able to force Maine to do at their direction under threat of punitive legal action under The Act’s provision’s. And when you all read the Act also be aware that Cianbro’s Government and Corporate Relation’s people wrote this Act, not a Maine legislator. Does anyone really think that Cianbro’s gonna write a piece of legislation that doesn’t have their own best interest’s put first instead of the public’s ? If so then you deserve to have Vigue come knocking your house down with a bulldozer under eminent domain. This Act is nothing less than a memorial highway, a legacy if you will, to one man’s desire to be seen and remembered as some kind of visionary. Fine, be a visionary and go start re-building the various bridge’s that Maine DOT has on their ‘Need right now’ List and call it a Memorial Bridge’s Act. This highway is nothing more than a giveaway to the Canadian trucking company’s since it’s going to be, as ORIGINALLY PLANNED FOR, a non-stop highway from Coburn to Calais. Now that the public has gotten into this, gee, ‘suddenly’ Vigue has said that there are now 6 interchange’s planned for and another 2 ‘in the work’s’. Plan doesn’t seem very planned does it ? How many more ‘plan’s’ are there that we don’t know about that are being hidden from us ? The question’s, not real answer’s’, just keep piling up. When is Maine gonna get the answer’s we need, not press release’s that are being pushed on us, to reach an informed and responsible decision ?
And that Doug Thomas has now backed off isin’t such a surprise either. He knows ‘a dog’ when he see’s one. That he’s also up for re-election with this hanging over his head is the one big issue that he wishes he had never gotten involved in. Goes to show that even politician’s can learn, even if it takes a little longer for them to catch up with the rest of us ! And not to be missed is the Governor. Slow as he is, given his recent smacking by the Federal Court in Boston, even Paulie knows that this Act is now clearly seen for what it is. What’s even more troubling for him, and it had better be, is Cianbro’s own public statement that they, not the Maine Legislature, wrote the Act and managed to get it thru in less than 30 days without any of the normally required hearing’s and legal review’s. That alone should be screaming at the Governor that someone in the Statehouse has more than their hand out. It’s also a very clear message to both Party’s that any legislation that’s going to be submitted had better be more virgin that Ceaser’s daughter as far as who actually wrote it and the public good that needs to be seen in it before any other consideration. Given Maine’s recent slapping in Boston, one can be pretty much assured that the U.S. Attorney, not to mention the DOJ proper, is going to be looking at Maine under a micrscope as far as any type of Governmental action is undertaken that’s clearly seen as eventually heading to the Federal Court’s. Maybe we all need to get more involved with our own State gov’t and see just what’s going on in Augusta besides listening to Nutting cry over the ACA coming to Maine or Cindy Dill start espousing Roxanne’s many virtue’s.
Mike,
You are referring to Title 23 Section4251..the Highway privataization act written by Cianbro and the asphalt lobby andd sheehered through by Dennis Damon with no public comment or notice?
If so..I am with you all the way on your characterizations.
It should be repealed right off the bat!!! First thing this ession. It should be a poison especially for the original sponsors and carriers…they must take the lead now in repealing it.
It affcets every single road and bridge iin Maine..even railways..it is way too broadly worded an has no safeguards at all to protect public interests.
. I always voted for Damon, not this time I have to vote against him..
pushed the red button,
Hey!!! That’s the way to use our “we the people power”..be sure to tell him why you are not voting for him.
OH I will.
Lindsay,You and Mike are making the assumption that this project can only be completed under the Public/Private Partnership Act. What if this project doesn’t use the PPP act at all??
renderman90
Doing it through the PPP ( via Title 23 Section 4250), which could be done even as Vigue describes it offers several major advantages:
(1) state guarantees of the private financing which would significantly lower the cost of accessing private markets ( almost not doable without that lowerd cost of a public guarantee)
(2)expedited processing and red tape cutting that would not be possible as a totally private road
(3) acquiring the possibility of using eminent domain and even of oublic financing up to 50%
(4) gaining the right to/means of using public road sections or crossing public road sections ( for use eg of 27 which is frequently refeenced) they would have to pay a fee.
(5) gaining the possible rights of a pubic road eg for utilization of the right of way for utilities ( including tar sands pipelines) with out the normal public hearing process or permtting process
(6) gaining the secrecy of the route, exist details etc, util approved by MDOT and presented to the legislature.There is no vehicle for public hearings or public ioout in Title 23 Section 4251 as Cianbro and the asphalt lobby wrote it for themselves
The public benefit language in our statute is the worst of any I’ve seen ( & MDOT was in on the draft per orders of Baldacci) but still there would have to be some declaration of public benefit or fitting in with transportation priorities which would be hard to meet. All findings to date are that the roadway would have marginal if any benefit for Maine and cause possible harm through diversion to existing jobs producing tax producing commercial centers.
Without all these boosts and percs, it is almost impossible to imagine that there is financial feasibility for this project even with the utility corridor leasing fees offsetting the high costs of financing..and then every single utility placement would have to go through permitting and public scrutiny.
I am urging repeal not because I don’t think there is a place for PPP’s in transportation but because this one is too far off the charts to be salvageable..we need to start over and the public has to be part of shaping how and when it is used and also addressing public benefits issues (like Maine jobs, Maine contractors etc).
Also if we repeal it through pressure on our legislators ( a poison pill strategy) it effectively pulls the plug on Vigue’s East West Corridor and any other out of left field proposals that could emerge statewide for any road or bridge or railway under it.
By the way, we have a huge statutory gap both in LURC rules and in state legislation on any kind of private road of this scale. I think it is a high priority to fill that gap before we are hit with any more surprises..as we surely will bei
PQ don’t want anything to do with it. NB and Irving do.
Yes Yes Yes … or Oui oui oui ! You are so right. It’s the biggest newspaper and information grabbing people… the Irvings using their ego’s to tell Mainer’s what they want to do with our woods. They own alot of it anyways. We have no clue what else they influence. Mines in the woods maybe? Ha !
Peter not having the Cianbro name attached to the project says something…
I don’t know if it is a good idea or not but what I do know is that it shouldn’t be a private toll road own and controlled by a Corp. If it is so important have Peter Vigue tell his obstructionist friends in DC to get off their duffs a pass a job bill. Roads should be built by the Gov’t not private enterprises.
If people don’t want to use it – don’t. Nothing wrong with a private enterprise, the government is not the answer to our problems, private enterprise is.
We should be doing everything we can to privatize all we can, anything run by the government is inefficient, expensive, and wast of my money.
Your wrong when it comes to commerce. The Gov’t should lead the way. If it were up to private enterprise we’ve seen what they have done in the past by polluting our air and water.
Subject: [bdn] Re: Peter Vigue takes east-west highway gospel to forest resources group
I am thinking that you are just yanking my chain…. if your response is truly how you feel, I cannot even begin to properly respond in the constraints of a viewer comment forum.
I am thinking that your name truly describes your situation, as that response from a US citizen just puts me beyond words.
PS – the US Government has been one of the largest polluters of our air and water.
See Agent orange, Hanford Nuclear Reservation, Rocky Flats, Chemical and biological weapons labs and facilities. Military bases are all superfund sites, or will be.
How many tolls road to carry Commerce have been build by private enterprise in the US that haven’t involved the Gov’t?
Subject: [bdn] Re: Peter Vigue takes east-west highway gospel to forest resources group
Private enterprise (the folks who brought you NAFTA, the bank melt-down, The Pitcher Oklahoma disaster, sales of negative paper, percentage A.T.M. charges, The Centrillia Pennsylvania disaster and hostile government takings) is the answer to our problems? Where do you live, Switzerland?
Centrillia was caused by the government – the Centralia Borough Council hired five members of the volunteer fire company to clean up the town landfill, located in an abandoned strip-mine pit next to the Odd Fellows Cemetery. This had been done prior to Memorial Day in previous years, when the landfill was in a different location. On May 27, 1962, the firefighters, as they had in the past, set the dump on fire and let it burn for some time. Unlike in previous years, however, the fire was not fully extinguished. An unsealed opening in the pit allowed the fire to enter the labyrinth of abandoned coal mines beneath Centralia
Actually Switzerland is in much better shape environmentally, economically and business wise. I don’t live there, but I don’t live in your government run utopia either
crzyvet, the people will not be able to use it.. where would get the Idea that it was a private, public toll road??
He just doesn’t give up does he? Vigue will fight for this to the death.
“all those highly populated rural areas” — what???
Just because there’s not a house or a Micky-D’s taking a spot of one of those “highly populated rural areas” doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. It is !!! Isn’t it nice to drive somewhere not to far and not see a highway or paved roads? Even if it is/was logged in the past? … it grows and holds nature.The rivers you can go down without hearing or seeing a highway or paved road. Those places aren’t around here in New England anymore sir. If that’s what you meant by “being in the 50’s” then so be it. Or maybe the old houses you see on the sides of the road on your drives thru the north? Don’t let that judge the heart and knowledge of the people who call it home. Being from the “Big City”, I can’t believe that just because you don’t have roads and KFC that we’re in the 50’s. I guess in the 50’s they had an IMac, wireless interent services because i’m talking to your futuristic eye’s right now.
Maybe you should not try to stereotype…oh! and you can always move or visit places that have lots and lots of highways… there’s no shortage of ’em.
I wonder if I’m the only person that supports both an East-West highway AND a National Park
Mainer’s will fight ANYTHING that would move this state out of the 50s. And that is why we are is such bad shape economically.
How about this?
I’m not in bad shape economically and I’ve lived here for the last 30 years. Maybe your “bad shape” is your fault?
Yeah… another person who has the mentality of: “I got mine, so screw you.”
No that’s not it, but you may be onto something, maybe it started when you came, what do you do for a living?
No, we are in such bad shape because of buffoons like LePage being at the helm of our state.
nope that’s not it
You don’t like Maine I take it.. If Maine is as bad as you pointed out, what are you doing here.. You don’t seem to like the people or the State.. I would move to a different State if I didn’t like the people or the State.
moved comment
John, many of us have lived here all of our lives, so you can go float. I
know first hand that we were one of the first states to be fully
connected to the Internet, more connected than Indonesia at the time,
and many of us that you think just fell off the turnip truck did not. We
are well-read, highly educated people who recognize what has been going
on here ie Agenda 21 and globalism for profit, and it stinks to high
heaven!! My family moved to Maine in the late 50s and I can tell you
right now, we were better off THEN than NOW.
“Our effort is all around the goal of no corridor, no compromise. We don’t want to mitigate, we don’t want to compromise with these people…..”
Just about says it all – we don’t want it so no one else can have it!
I have always said a compromise is 2 bad ideas..
Are most of you people truly this STUPID? It is people like you that keep this state a sh*% hole by not allowing it to grow and expand. Mr Vigue is trying to put Maine on the map and help bring it out of the toilet. Get over it already and let this state and its residents expand for the greater good.
Yes we’re stupid because we don’t want big city laws, crime , tax, pollution
and flat landers telling us how stupid we are.
We’re so G.D. stupid, flatlanders kill to move here
to destroy the beauty of our state and roll in our
dumbass bliss.
Move on jack face and get out of our face.
Guess what – we have all of the above. Pollution from the midwest, as evidenced by mercury in our streams and limits on how many fish we should eat per month. Meth, Bath Salts, and Oxy abuse – the drugs of choice for the trailer park crowd we have in this State. Home invasion and robberies all over Maine to steal for payment of said drugs. If a highway destroys the beauty of this State, we should all be out with shovels and pick-axes up and down I-95 to remove the scar from our landscape! Indeed!
Well then let’s just make it worse.
I remember when 95 tore through it was distressing
One stinking toll road for Canada will not help this state
or the people in it. And it’s suppose be private owned
You think theres all kinds of un-owned land just begging to be tore
up and paved ?
Well Hughe; you sure told us.
Here’s an idea. Why don’t you get over yourself, and realize that not everyone wants the same thing as you. That would be a truly “smart” view.
And it’s people like you who look the other way and allow “progress” to happen that spoils one of the last remaining treasures in our country, the largest contiguous forest east of the Mississippi. To believe the only route to prosperity is manufacturing and trucking is kind of passe. Think a little more creatively about what we have and how to promote it.
We’re listening… tell us how to improve our economy…. please, even one legitimate idea… it would be more than all of your anti-highway comrades combined have done.
You tell us OK?? What benifit will this Canadian Highway through Maine do for the people of Maine?
Please List them
To begin with, we have the ongoing expansion of the Panama Canal, which is expected to create unprecedented shifts in shipping trends away from overcrowded west coast ports and toward ports on the Eastern Seaboard. Many experts say the current, canal-driven, worldwide shift in shipping holds many opportunities for the Northeast…An example from the global supply chain publication, World Trade:
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“The expanded canal will create additional options for carriers. ‘[The expansion] will create more competition and, ultimately, lower costs of goods, both imported and exported,’ says Kurt Nagle, president and CEO at the American Association of Port Authorities.
Ports in the Northeast U.S. are gearing up for the expansion by making significant infrastructure upgrades, both on- and off-dock. Their strategy is simple: convince companies that by taking an all-water route from Asia to the Northeast through the Panama Canal with a short truck haul to the final destination—as opposed to unloading cargo at a West Coast port and rail or truck that cargo inland, especially to the Midwest and East Coast—they can save thousands of dollars in costs per
container.”
******************
The situation points out the need for an independent, up to the minute, economic study to see if Maine’s ports can take advantage of the worldwide shift in shipping if connected to a modern highway that could take cargo, quickly and economically, from the Eastport region to Midwestern markets.An expanded and busy port in Eastport would create many good paying jobs. It is easy to imagine that the port would also create many ancillary businesses to support the port, from crane suppliers, restaurants to feed the longshoremen, shipping repair shops, boot merchants, etc… This is why the newspapers are replete with descriptions of support for the highway plan from the people of Downeast Maine and in the Eastport area in particular.
That’s not even mentioning the jobs associated with the highway itself… first, the hundreds if not thousands of jobs that would be created for building the road. Then there are all the jobs maintaining the road, including plowing, patching, patrolling, toll booth personnel, etc…
There are people on this blog who thumb their nose at the whole idea of prosperity coming from a highway. But there are very many smart and credentialed experts who recognize that the unprecedented expansion of the Panama Canal means unprecedented opportunity for the ports of the East Coast, including the Northeast.
This is why ports up and down the Eastern Seaboard are hustling to complete upgrades that will make the ports attractive to shippers who will transport cargo aboard the huge new ships. Lo and behold, it turns out that precious few ports along the entire seaboard have water as deep as Eastport, deep water that is essential for the navigation of these herculean new cargo vessels. But, because of defeatists in our
midst who have a thousand reasons why Maine can’t compete, we are sitting on our hands.
Globalists have not helped Maine. Prove that we are better off now than before NAFTA, I’d love to see that argument! Bingham, Millinocket, and all of Washington County are probably hanging on for that information from you too. WE will be waiting.
Again, I’ve told you what I believe to be the real economic benefits of the highway plan, from following the debates, presentations for and against, etc, for the past several months. Now you tell me: What are you going to do to get off your rump and create jobs for our economy, since you are so opposed to the highway plan? What’s your BETTER idea? Not one of you anti-highway people can put up a decent plan to jump start the economy. All you do is whine and complain and in the end, do absolutely nothing to help fix the problem. So… go ahead…. tell us your better plan…that is if you’ve even given it a moment’s thought during this entire highway debate.
Brandon it would seem you are a shill for Peter, a fetch man.
What’s the matter, Buttons? Does it bother you to have someone challenge your positions in a discussion? If I didn’t know better, I’d think you were a fetch girl for Lindsay Bowker…or maybe you are one and the same person ;-)
Brandon, what is the route for the road, who besides the Taxpayers is investing in this project an Who or what country will hod the title to this highway. No excuses that it’s not complete. What are the answer to these questions… also why won’t the people of maine be able to use Peters highway… Yet the highway bill states that the State of Maine “MUST” pay 50% of this road… another thing if I gave you a brand new car and placed it in your driveway then told you, that you cannot drive it or do anything with the car for 50 years. would you want the new car?
When the state put the hold on the feasibility study, it was because not enough is known about the exact route. Vigue said he is studying various possible routes. That indicates to me that the route is not determined yet. Supporters have also stated in the press that investors have yet to be recruited, which is discussed in this very article above in the BDN, which says that financial resources will be determined across the next nine months to a year. As I’ve mentioned to you before, I’ve never heard that Maine citizens won’t be able to use the highway. In fact, Vigue said in Dover Foxcroft that tourism will get a boost because of passenger vehicle traffic using the highway to access Maine’s interior. The 50% bond thing is not something I’ve heard either. Please show your sources for those claims.
Brandon, I would close Maine off entirely for a start to all who aren’t Mainers, with Checkpoint Charlies on every major highway, kick out the globalists one by one or in groups, and go back to producing our own products at the very least. I would deputize some good-hearted people and have them go out and clean out the corruption in public offices wherever it is found to exist. I would close all the state agencies down and ask Governor Paul LePage to tell the federal govt to “Go to the Warm Place.” Does that sound like socialism or communism to you? After everything was all cleaned up and restored to normal, I would reopen Maine for people who want to develop Maine for itself and the people who live here, and not for China or Canada or bankers. Anything else you want to know?
No, nothing else I need to know. I knew you were just another policy pretender with no real answers the moment I read your first sentence: “I would close Maine off entirely for a start to all who aren’t Mainers.”
Policy pretender? What is that? Another label to bash someone with?
It means you don’t have any practical, useful ideas to stimulate the economy. All you have is a quiver full of arrows to sling at people who are trying to find ways to stimulate the economy, and not one serious, effective idea for putting 54,000 unemployed Mainers back to work.
If I were to build a Jail to house all Mainers, you would be OK with that because it created construction Jobs, Then end result of the project wouldn’t matter to you… Construction Jobs are all temporary.. No future in temporary construction job at $12.50 an hour..
Again, Red Buttons…. what is your answer for improving the economy?
Well I buy at least one pair of New Balance sneakers a year, plus shopping local grown products,, Yet Brandon I think the whole state should be a working forest where timber is harvested to make maine products.. This road doesn’t provide for either
Well, judging by the article above, it seems like the foresters who listened to Vigue speak in Bangor are relatively supportive of the highway as a means for supporting their forest products businesses.
Who is we? And don’t call me comrade ever again. It’s a Communist word.
How else would one describe someone who behaves as an extreme socialist?
Brandon, my dear. In what way did you get the idea that I am a socialist? If anything, taking public funds and/or private land to build a road to benefit corporate interests is certainly along the lines of building for the collective WE is it not? Did you go to college Brandon? Who is the WE in this current plot, oh excuse me, I mean current plan? And further, do you think that it’s possible that this would be tried in Maine first to see if it could be gotten past the buffoons that you and you friends call real Mainers/Americans from the United States of America?
You certainly don’t seem to believe in private enterprise, which is what a two billion dollar investment of private money would be in an EW Highway, with no use of eminent domain, my dear. The WE in this plot are those of us who listen to you anti-highway people bellyache after every article that comes out in a newspaper, but have yet to hear one cogent plan on your part to improve our economy.
Are you kidding me? Brandon, I do believe in private enterprise, talked about it at dinner tonight about how those of us who have worked since we were children have had our wealth and our retirement plans taken away by your “plans”. I gave you my ideal plan, look around for it; it was all laid out in lavender for you.
You haven’t given me anything but a lot of evasive blather, which is what I have come to expect from people who have a hundred reasons to shoot down other people’s efforts to stimulate the economy, while putting forward not one reasonable idea of their own.
Brandon, I’m sorry but I need to stop wasting my time on this. What you’re defending so hard you must believe in as the correct course of action, or you are being paid very well to spend your time here.
There’s no way I’ll ever support globalists ruining the state of Maine. It’s OUR state and we’ve worked hard all our lives. To be called lazy and that I should go back to bed by a stranger who does not agree with me, and who has no idea who he is talking to, is a supreme insult, especially because by doing that you have clearly put yourself above others who are very well informed on the issues. You are the one who seems to have nothing of value to offer. You are the one who is spouting nonsense on this story. I would be thoroughly ashamed to act like that. Have a good night and a great weekend. I plan to take care of my garden and then sell some of my stuff to pay my property taxes on a foreclosing lien that is not my fault. That’s enough stress for me at the moment.
What you are attacking so hard you must believe is not the correct course of action, but I’ll never support leaving fellow Mainers, including family, to wallow in poverty if there is a way to improve the economy. This is my state too, and you have not been especially polite in your criticisms, so please don’t get too indignant with me. I’m not ashamed of stating my opinion, though you think I should be. Meanwhile, as I mentioned to you earlier, I do hope that you find answers to your economic problems. You and I are old Mainers who both love our state, and who both need a decent paycheck to survive. The answer is out there somewhere, but we will never find a path to prosperity if people with economic ideas are attacked as pariahs, like the supporters of the highway have been. Hope you have a good night and a good weekend also.
Brandon, I had a good job and a good life for decades serving my fellow Mainers, had health insurance and other benefits, life insurance, annuities, retirement plan, savings, and property, all my assets acquired by work, and not by privilege, entitlement, or theft. Systematically my assets have been taken from me by the economic system you defend or work for, much of it done by deliberate fraud and deception carried out by the hidden workings of that system, and I get a little ticked off to be called lazy and a Communist by someone who has no idea what I’ve been through and seems fine with helping to build an empire for a group of people who planned the whole thing from back before many of us were born. Other than that “we’re good.” Have a great weekend and life. I’m done with this back and forth. One way or the other the road will be built or the road will be stopped. We’ve more than expressed what each of us want to happen and I don’t agree with you.
Detriot is on the map. I don’t think coporate in Detriot cared for the people do you?? http://youtu.be/02x8EHXPfB0
Tell us Hughe, what State would you like Maine to look like??? Jersey maybe, Mass. possible Tell us in all your wisdom what Maine should look like.
Just think you have the ability to move to a State that meets or exceeds all your needs. go now.
Hey, does anyone have videos or photos to share with Hugh? He needs to be educated in what Maine was, what it has become due to outsiders coming in to bring “progress”, and what it will be after it is restored.
i am offended by the rape sign…
Ask the people of New Jersey if adding roads leads to prosperity.
Yeah, what he said.
.
I don’t know who’s believing this.
Is this being produced by Disney? Fairy Tale Productions?
It will do nothing but make a fortune for Vigue and shave several miles for BIG Canadian Transportation companies.
This will do absolutely nothing for jobs.
.
Since you are such a “jobs expert,” what is your grand plan for putting Mainers to work?
How exactly will this put Mainers to work??
.
Vigue is a Construction guy. He’ll make a personal fortune off of this.
And robbing from Obama, that is low. Obama’s schtick is we need more money for Roads and Bridges. New Roads and Bridges will save us.
How’d that work out?
In 5 years, you’ll just have a huge, expensive behemoth that those young people that can’t find jobs won’t even be able to afford to travel.
This thing doesn’t lead to Jobs – it leads to enrichment for a CEO.
.
I’m still waiting for the federal building to be done. How much time does renovation take? I’d be embarrassed to be on that project.
Peter never said it would be his road, All he is saying is he wants to build a east west highway… My question is where is the money coming from?? Who is going to own the road.. The People who support anything Peter tells them to, ought to ask that question..
Peter who are you working for, Who is going to own the Road??? Why hasn’t that question been asked?
Nobody in their right mind would invest in this project if they were looking to profit on the tolls… So who is going to benifit by a road that the tolls won’t ever pay for?
Canada.
Vigue thinks it’s in vogue to be vague.
Peter where is the money coming from to Build this project, and who’s going to have their name on the title? Please tell us.
What do we need to survive? Food, shelter, water, and love is nice too. We’re richer than rich here in Maine, with our needs. We grow food, we have wood and all kinds of amazing resources to build houses, we have some of the best drinking water in the world, and we have people who have loved this place so much that their families have stayed here for hundreds of years, indigenous folks for thousands of years. These things are valuable. As soon as you mine it, cut it, and pump it for money you don’t have the same quality of value. You have seconds, what’s been cut over. How much more value can we squeeze out of the state before it’s too poor to even sustain those of us who live here? Why on earth would we want to build a quicker, more efficient way to impoverish ourselves so that a few wealthier people make even more money? Once the water is owned by a large private company, the forests are cut faster, and the food we grow sent away more, we will be MORE dependent on money, more poor, and most of us won’t even have the quality of life that we live here for. You’ve got to think long term on this project folks. Vigue’s a resource-extraction salesman, and he is great at it. That’s his track record.
Food, shelter, water…. 60,000 Maine kids go hungry because of our lousy poverty-stricken economy, according to the hunger fighting organization, “Share our Strength.”
“Just over 15 percent of Maine households weren’t able to put adequate food on the table at times during the past year, according to the latest survey by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. That’s up from about 9 percent a decade ago.” ~Lewiston Sun Journal
Vigue has a plan to turn these horrendous statistics around. What’s your grand strategy?
Lindsay, I’ll have your baby !!!!! Many thank’s………
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******
Vigue is the snake in the garden.
This is supposed to be a news story. So why is the first paragraph nothing but opinion?
OK. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT A HIGHWAY THROUGH MAINE, THAT THE PEOPLE OF MAINE WON’T BE ALLOWED TO USE…
FOLKS!!!! IT IS NOT THE TURNPIKE. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO AXCESS THIS ROAD.. IT IS FOR TRUCKS ONLY AND A SHALE OIL PIPELINE AND POWER LINES…
YOU AS A CITIZEN OF MAINE WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO LOOK AT IT, NOT DRIVE ON IT. NOT TO HARD TO FIGURE OUT THAT THE STATE WILL PAY FOR 1/2 A CORPORATE HIGHWAY THAT YOU CAN’T DRIVE ON…. NO BRAINER EH!!!
Calm down, Buttons…. and show us where you get the idea that Mainers won’t be able to use the highway….
when has Peter ever said they could? ask him. It it were so he would have plenty of support.