Comments for: American nuns stunned by Vatican crackdown

Posted April 21, 2012, at 6:36 a.m.
Last modified April 21, 2012, at 10:53 a.m.

American nuns struggled to respond Friday to a Vatican crackdown on what it calls “radical feminism” among the women and their purported failure to sufficiently condemn such issues as abortion and same-sex marriage. Some nuns in the 55,000-member Leadership Conference of Women Religious characterized the disciplinary action announced Wednesday as …

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  • Anonymous

    Sexist institutions have no place in our evolving moral consciousness.  Humanity has to continue to grow ethically to match its technological might; otherwise, we are like 13-year-olds with bazookas, uranium and anthrax packets.

  • Anonymous

    Gee, I guess the Vatican DOES realize how many people have been driven away from the church because of the “soft coup” undertaken by the leftist nun groups and the “anything goes” priests and bishops.
      The nuns’ and “professors” protestations are pretense, pure pretense.   THEY know the name of the game they’ve been playing. 
      What dishonest people they are.

  • Anonymous

    In my opinion, as a Catholic, I feel that the Catholic Church has become too corrupted by mankind. Namely church leaders like the Bishops and Pope. An example: Priests cant be married? This was never a rule originally until a Pope decided to add it. Priests are asked to abstain from marriage and sex. This is half the problem with the sex abuse cases involving Priests. Also, youre supposed to ask a priests advice on marriage, and children when they have NO personal experience with these issues? Another thing…”thou shall not honor any other God before me…”. Do Catholics not worship the Pope? That right there in violation of the Ten Commandments. Also, why doesnt the church get rid of the gold chalices, and decorations and use that money to help the poor? Did Jesus use a gold plated chalice or a wooden one????  God said women should be treated with respect, yet the Pope has made it clear by his actions towards the Nuns that he does not value them. I adored Pope John Paul, but this new Pope has done very little to keep his “flock” together. If anything he has managed to chase them away…

    • Anonymous

      Priests have always, under limited circumstances, been able to be married, but overall celibacy has been the rule for most priests for quite some time. Priests are trained in marital conflict resolution and other counseling techniques so they can serve as able advisers to their parishioners. Some are better at it than others–just like secular therapists have some that meet needs better than others. If I go to a secular therapist for advice, I don’t necessarily need my therapist to have experienced what I have experienced in order for her to counsel me.
      Catholics do not worship the Pope. Gold chalices and other ornamental objects are used because they are precious and do honor to God. There is plenty of Biblical instances where God commands the use of precious items in worship. Even Jesus said, the poor you will always have with you, but this woman who anointed my feet with expensive perfume, instead of selling it to give money to the poor, has done a good thing.
      As a Catholic woman, I have never felt disrespected by my church.

      • Anonymous

         How can you say that catholics dont worship the Pope? Do they not flock to his feet and bow down in his presence? Sounds and looks like worshipping the Pope to me. What about the part that the Catholic Church played in the priest/child abuse scandal? In regards to Catholic Priests being married….that is NOT allowed. I dont know what priests you know of that are married, but I can guarrantee that they are NOT catholic. As far as gold chalices…I am sure Jesus would prefer to feed hungry people versus buying gold chalices. The catholic church is becoming VERY materialistic. If you dont see these issues that I have pointed out then parishoners like you are part of the problem.

        • Mainemom, you are not correct regarding married Catholic priests. The number is small but they exist. Most are in the eastern rite of the Catholic Church (and I do not mean the Othodox Churches); they have been allowed to marry for many years. Under Pope Paul II, married Anglican priests were allowed to ‘convert’ to catholicism and remain married. Most of these priests are in Europe. And just recently Pope Benedict expanded this Anglican rule to include entire Anglican parishes.

          As for woman in the Catholic Church?  They are 2nd class citicens in a patriarchal society and, in my Catholic educated opinion, contrary to the teachings of Christ.

          • Anonymous

            I knew about the anglican priests…correct me if I am wrong but the “not allowed to  be married”rule still apples to catholic priests then if they do  defend the church not fit into one of the special categories you mentioned above????   So bascially what I said is true…. what you should be concerned about is ALOT of people liked my posts on this matter. The posts that defend the Catholic Church are very few, and very few likes. Its sad that the catholic church doesnt seem to recognize that it has a very seriou issue here. Its losing parishoners due to poor judgement and policies. The church leaders are extrememly out of touch with their own parishoners. I am torn as a catholic. I want to go to church. I cannot however be a part of a religious group that is clearly straying from original plan set up by Jesus. I also feel I cannot change faiths because I promised God I would be catholic. I cant break my promise to God just because his leaders are not doing their jobs right. So basically I have no religious place I can go to. Thats ok, because I  am pretty sure that God can hear me no matter where I am. A church building is not a direct communication line to God.

          • me in me

            God doesn’t care if you are Catholic (see the brainwashing taking place here?) Jesus  and God aren’t Catholic or has the Church convinced you that they are ? You promised the priests you would be Catholic , not God. You can go to any church and worship. No other church would critsize you for sitting in their pews. Maybe you  need a clean break from the Catholic church.

          • I understand where you are coming from.  I too was born and raised Catholic.  However, after actually reading the Bible for myself and realizing that the Church is not following the Bible, and a lot of the Cannon Laws are in violation of the Bible…I left the only Church I truly know.  I was a member of the Knights of Columbus, and have held respectable positions within the council, was a member of the Parish Council, etc.  I too made the promise to God that I would be Catholic.  Today, I do not attend “Church”; instead, I continue to reread my Bible, always striving for more insight into what it says and means.  I pray, my wife prays, and so do our children.  Remember, “Wherever two or more are gathered in my name…”

          • Anonymous

            As I said in a previous post, I know personally dsiaffected Catholics who have found a home in inclusive Protestant congregations and who honestly feel that they are keeping their promises to God.  Hopefully, you can also find a faith home.

          • Anonymous

             Have you ever had to make a life decision, take an oath or a vow? When you make such a decision do you keep your word, your commitment? Becoming a Nun is a tough decision, and requires much reflection, the same as a priest. They know what they are getting into.
            The same as if someone gets married and takes a vow. You know your place and they know their’s. If they wanted to be second class citizens then they would not have gone there. 

          • Anonymous

             So, if you grow up Catholic, are married and want to be a priest, that is not possible.

            But, if you are Anglican, get married, become a priest, then you can convert to Catholicism and be a married priest? What kind of convoluted reasoning allows this?

          • Anonymous

            Many men enter the priesthood as widowers. But no, as it stands now, a married Catholic cannot be a priest. He can serve as a deacon, which is a consecrated position with many of the responsibilities of the priesthood–the one notable exception being a deacon cannot consecrate the bread and wine at mass. Not all Anglican married priests will necessarily be granted the right to be priests in the Catholic church, in my understanding. It’s a decision made on an individual case basis.

          • Anonymous

            Many are ignoring that the non-married preist policy is the result of a 1000 year old economic–not theologic–decision.

          • The whole reason for the ban was economic. It’s amazing how they can spin it into  something where people actually believe it’s about service to god “blah blah blah” when the reality of the reason for the ban is no where near that. 

        • Anonymous

          Catholics do not worship the Pope. Audiences with the Pope do have certain etiquette involved, as do audiences with royalty. If you were introduced to the Queen of England, you might bow before her–that is the etiquette the situation calls for. But it is not worship. When people do flock to hear the Pope, they do not bow en masse to him at all.
          The part the Catholic Church played in the child abuse scandal was wrong. They have admitted their mistake, and have gone a long way toward attempting to make reparations to victims. The church has worked hard to put measures in place so that this will not happen again.
          Priests from other faith traditions such as Anglican, Episcopalian, Orthodox, and even Lutheran pastors who convert to the Catholic faith and are married are sometimes granted a dispensation to be married and also to be priests in the Catholic Church.
          The Catholic Church works worldwide to feed, clothe and care for the poor. They give billions to these causes. The use of gold chalices for worship is completely in line with Jesus’ teachings, and the teaching of the Bible. Materialism is a state of mind, based on what your heart is set on. If your heart is set on honoring God, then offering the very best and most precious in his honor is a tribute, not materialistic.
          I doubt I am part of the problem, but you never know.

          • Anonymous

            If the Pope is declared to be infallibe, that approaches worship by any definition.
            The belated response to child abuse may eventually work out (after too much pain and suffering).
            Other commenters are correct.  Dispensation toward “converted” married pastors is inconsistent with the non-married priestpolicy for life long Catholics, a kick in the teeth.  As before, the policy is inconsistent with theology in the first place.
            At least one Protestant world relief organization operates in more countries than the Catholic organization.  And gold chalices and trappings are consistent with Christ’s teachings?  Chapter and verse, please.  Ever read the one on the temple money changers?

          • Anonymous

            Infallibility of the Pope only extends to his teaching on faith and morals. He is not infallible in his personal life or decisions. And he is not considered in any way divine–he is not even to be venerated, much less worshiped.
            The celibacy rule of the Catholic church is just that: a rule. It can be changed at any time. Special dispensations can be granted when the leaders feel it is justified. I was friends with a Lutheran pastor who was converting to Catholicism years ago. He was married and was hoping to be granted a dispensation so he could serve as a priest. In his case, it was not granted.
            I am not going to cite chapter and verse in the Bible, but I will direct you to God’s commands to the Israelites in constructing the Ark of the Covenant. It was to be covered in gold. Also I point once again to Christ and the woman who annointed his feet with perfume. She was scolded by a disciple who said the perfume could have been sold and the money given to the poor. Christ answered that she had done a good thing; the poor would always be there and would always need help, but he was there now and she offered this precious substance to honor him. When God commanded the Israelites to offer a sacrifice to him, they were always to offer unblemished animals, the best animals. When the three magi came to worship the newborn babe, they brought precious gold and frankincense to honor him.
            If the Catholic church was neglecting its responsibility to feed and clothe the poor and sick so that it could hoard gold, you might have something to argue against. They are not.
            Thanks for engaging in this discussion. I hope it brings a little more insight into the Catholic faith.

      • That’s funny, cause the Catholic Church, of all the churches, has taken most of its “ceremonies” from other heathen religions. Their gold and riches are not a tribute to god, they were collected over centuries as payments from lords and kings for favorable messages from the Pope. You want the church to get behind your holy war in the Middle East, you had to make suitable payment.

        As for being disrespected, it is all in your point of view. As an American woman you are being disrespected 24/7. Name another group an American woman would support knowing that she could never be part of the management let alone be head of the group simply because she is a woman. Christianity has robbed women of their power. The old heathen religions held women in much higher regard. Of course if you put being Catholic before being American, then you wouldn’t see yourself as being disrespected because you have been taught from a young age that the mans word carries more weight than the woman’s. Not to mention that your body is gods, not yours, and those men in the funny robes and hats know better then you what you can and cannot do with your own body.

        • Anonymous

          The Catholic faith has always taught that humankind throughout history has sought for the divine. Humans have found the divine presence in nature particularly, and they have developed traditions and ceremonies that honor that divine presence. To the Catholic mind, God is that divinity, and Christ has revealed the true nature of the Divine Creator. Thus it is perfectly compatible that many of those customs developed by heathens in their quest for the divine will have a presence in Catholic worship, which does not consider itself as some interloper into humanity, but as a fulfillment of humanity’s desire for spiritual satisfaction.

          I have never been taught that a man’s word carries more weight than a woman’s. Women, in every aspect of their femininity, are respected in the Catholic Church. You speak of being Catholic before being American, but that is a false dichotomy. Would you ask me if I consider myself a woman before being an American? I am a woman, a Catholic and an American all at once.

          American popular culture teaches young girls that the goal in life is to be beautiful, thin, and pleasing to men. Now, not all women end up buying into this 100%, but most women feel the pressure to conform to that standard. To me, that is repressive to women. The Catholic Faith teaches that all women have a divine soul and an intrinsic beauty. All we have to be as Catholic women, is ourselves. We are honored for our talents. We are honored for our ability to be mothers. One does not exclude the other in the Catholic faith. This idea that men are running around in the Catholic Church telling women what they have to do, what they can’t do–well, it’s just weird. It’s as if people don’t think Catholic women have the ability to speak for themselves and make their own decisions.

          • The majority of those ceremonies the church uses were not due to divinity, they were assimilating religion/culture of the people they conquered. For example Christmas being celebrated during December, when Christ was born in spring. And yes the church does tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. Have sex before marriage, you’re going to hell. Birth control, you are going to hell. 

          • Anonymous

            The decision to put the celebration of Christ’s birth at the winter solstice has symbolic significance, particularly for the northern hemisphere where the Christian faith was established. T the moment of the darkest point of the year, we celebrate every year the birth of light and understanding. Many of the ceremonies use things that have a common symbolism–such as a ring to represent eternity.
            The church tells men and women alike that sex before marriage is a sin–but not that they are going to hell. Birth control is sinful for a couple to use, not just for the woman.

          • Anonymous

            The Catholic Church does not have an exclusive on Christian thought and divinity.  Far from it.  And, over the millennia, it has drifted away from whatever certificatin it professes.

            Apparently, Catholic women do not have the ability to speak their own minds, without censure at least.

          • Anonymous

            I never claimed the Catholic Church has an exclusive on anything. I would just ask that you consider charitably that you do not know or understand everything about Catholicism.
            I am a Catholic woman, and I am completely free to speak my mind. Nuns, on the other hand, do take certain vows, by complete free-will informed choice, and one of those vows is obedience. If one takes such a vow, one can’t really complain when one is asked to maintain it. 

        • Anonymous

           And what do you know about the Catholic church if you are not a Catholic? Other than speculation.

          • Anonymous

            Now that really is funny.  How would anyone know anything, by reading and paying attention to what one learns perhaps.

          • Anonymous

            We know plenty.  We’ve lived among Catholics, worshiped with them, discussed a number of issues with them, and we read a lot (including Bible study).  Many of The Church’s definiencies were pointe out to me byCatholics.  Hopefully, we’re less blindered than many of the “faithful”.

          • My wife is a recovering catholic as well. She’s a great resource for information.

        • Anonymous

          Mysogeny anywhere comes from fear, men knowing that women have the real power of reproduction.  It’s a macho response to attempt to retrieve power.
          Incidently, I’m a guy, Protestant, married, who hopefully regards and treats women in the ways that they deserve. 

        • don’t forget buying your way into heaven. That was also a common practice centuries ago. 

      • Anonymous

        In all due respect for your personal faith, it is blindered at least to some extent.

    • Anonymous

       You should stop giving them your money.

    • Anonymous

      The gold chalices are not bought by the church. They are owned by the priest. When a priest is ordained the family normally gives the priest the chalice as a gift. It really has only meaning to the priest. The true ceremony which is the consecration, wine is used in the chalice which represents the blood of Christ and water represents the people. The water and wine are mixed to unite the people with Christ. Even the poorest places on earth
      try to have the most ceremonial ways to honor Christ.
           I also adored Pope John Paul II, not only did he bring the catholic community together he was bringing the world’s kid’s together. The largest issue I see here with the Catholic Church is this. There are millions of good Catholics. In every religion, in every organization there are a few that go astray and it depends on how these issues are handled. The Catholic Church did not do a very good job handling the pedophile issue at the outset. However, it is the 24 hour media that is the bigger problem. They hyped it, they studied it from every angle and they did not look at every other religion or at every other organization from the same vantage. Eventually, the truth will surface, that this is not exclusive to our church, that this is a societal issue, not a Catholic issue, not exclusive to us.

      • Anonymous

        If they’re the property of the Priest, that’s one of the reasons that Preists were forbidden to marry 1000 years ago.  No widows to claim the property.

        • Anonymous

           Good point!

    • Anonymous

      As a non-Catholic, I’m witness to several who have been chased awy.  Fortunately, into an accepting congregation.

  • Anonymous

    This is off the subject but I have to write…….As I grew up in Boston I went to a catholic school, St. Columbkille’s. Those sisters of mercy were just AWFUL. They could hit you with the long window-opening poles, rap your hand over and over with a ruler, pull your hair, humiliate you or send you to the priest(!!). If a child complained, more often than not, you were told, “Don’t you be speaking about the good sisters like that.” I saw lots of cruelty and unearned misery from those “sisters of mercy”.  Perhaps the catholic organization has changed a bit but the harm done to many children did not stop at the child sexual abuse we hear so much about. 

    • Anonymous

       I agree…. Have found that the “show” put on every week is just to fill the coffers of the organization. Sure, there is some good done, but it’s mostly to support the machine. My RC school experience was not as bad as yours, but not what should have been.

      • Anonymous

        I luckily did not suffer any physical punishment but I saw plenty of it. When I switched in grade 11 to a public school I was astounded at the level of civility between teachers and students and the expansion in learning that was possible rather than the rote memorization I was used to. The years I speak of were early 60’s. 

        • Anonymous

           Yet the religious crazies are trying their hardest to choke our kids with crap with our tax dollars.Support FFRF(Freedom From Religion Foundation)Great people doing great things.

    • Anonymous

       Ask Sinead O’Connor who was forced to go to Catholic schools about the abuse there and everywhere else.She got death threats for being brave on SNL.She was and is a hero as are all those who suffered at the hands of anyone with a robe on.

    • Anonymous

       Give me a break! I went to Catholic school in Boston to and I got the end of the yardstick every day by the Nuns. Made me a better person. It wasn’t abuse. It was a lesson.
      The old saying ” Spare the rod and spoil the child” applies. There was no sexual abuse that I knew of in Boston schools when I grew up and believe me I knew a lot of kids there. There was a lot of corporal punishment by the brothers and priests and an equal number of bullies and clashes between ethnic gangs Irish vs Italians. Us Irish kids had to navigate through the Italian neighborhood to get to and from school. I knew kids that went to every Catholic high school in the area in the 60’s and I never heard of any sexual abuse. I was an altar boy and no priest never went near me. I went to retreats and never saw any pedophile stuff. Maybe I missed all this stuff? Maybe all my friends missed this stuff? We can’t figure it out, only the people suing the church can figure it out.  

      • Anonymous

        Then you had your head in the sand about the sexual abuse but my main point was the continual corporal punishment for minor infractions. Maybe you liked the end of the yardstick, and maybe it’s what you expected from your whole environment ( walking through rival gangs territory ). What school did you attend ( or schools?) Sisters of mercy? Ha! Don’t believe it.

        • Anonymous

          1.) Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, St. Anne.s,  Hyde Park,2.) Archbishop Williams High.
          My brothers went to BC High(Jesuits), Catholic Memorial, Xaverian Bros. High, my sisters to St. Clair in Rosi., and I would go to retreats at Columban fathers in Milton., Miramar in Duxbury. I was an altar boy. So if you think I wasn’t aware of anything or I had my head in the sand  after spending my whole life raised in the church, then it is you who is off base I don’t think you attended Catholic school and if you did it wasn’t for very long otherwise you wouldn’t be saying what you said in your post. You would be gratified that you received a great education from these Nuns. 

      • Anonymous

        Sanctioned masochism is also wrong.

  • Anonymous

    I can’t imagine, even for a moment, why any healthy person would dedicate their lives and their spirit to an institution as corrupt and morally bankrupt as the Catholic Church. 

    • Anonymous

      Lack of imagination? Don’t sell yourself short. I bet your imagination can encompass lots of weirder things.

      • Anonymous

        Better than theblinders exhibited by some …

    • Anonymous

      We agree!

    • Guest

      Until I got to the end I thought you were talking about the U.S. Secret Service or the General Services Administration!

    • cleanearth

      They never “got” me.  I saw through this “believe and obey” nonsense when I was 5 years old, and began skipping church whenever I could.  Had to go to Mass while living at home, but haven’t been back except for weddings and funerals since age 18. 

      Always enjoyed the pageantry, but I figured that  their God was a jealous, vengeful, and rather mean  entity, such that he wasn’t my kind of guy.   

      Christianity, Judaism, Muslim teachings all put men above women…..and go to great lengths, like this latest attack on women, to keep women subservient.

      The Roman Catholic Church is the largest slumlord in America.  And they don’t have to pay taxes on their properties, which you and I do.

      Tax all churches same as the rest of us.

      The Vatican knows that questioning their rules will lead people to think in secular terms, that is, dealing with the world as it is and being kind to others, no matter who they are.

      If  Christian religions of all sorts would follow the example that we’ve been told was Christ’s, instead of constantly  demanding women’s subservience in matters of women’s reproductive abilities, we’d live in a much kinder, less hostile, world. 

      Almost all men want to control “their” and other women.  Seems to be genetic.  This is Neanderthal behavior, and they need to evolve past it.   

      • Anonymous

        The church also offers criticism to priests (far more often than nuns) when they are going astray from church doctrine. This is not about the church picking on women. The church is addressing areas where the sisters are not aligned with church teachings.

        • Anonymous

          Hmmmmm did the church ever offer much criticism for their pedophile priests whom they transferred around to various communities post hush, hush allegations thus allowing these ‘godly’  predators to continue to perpetuate in molesting hundreds of children over the years?  NOPE.  Only AFTER the victims came forward to disclose the abuse AND the vast majority of these ‘priests’ have NEVER had actual legal charges brought against them….a lovely organization….very ‘god like’ in it’s actions or rather in-actions….no thanks all set.

          • Anonymous

            The church was wrong to cover up abuse and to transfer priests to other parishes that had no idea of that priest’s past. Since the scandal broke, the church has officially apologized on many levels, repeatedly. They have put policies in place so that this will never happen again. Many of the priests have not been charged because of the statute of limitations imposed by the US legal system.

            The vast majority of Catholics have never been involved in any way with sex abuse of children. Many want to tear down the whole church because of what those who were involved did. Using that standard of justice, you would be required to indict the whole of American society. Sexual abuse of children is not a Catholic thing–it is a human problem.

        • Anonymous

           Naw, this is political payback. The Leadership Conference said positive things about the compromise the Obama administration put forward during the Obamacare debate. The Roman Church has aligned itself with Tea Party positions and feels the need to squelch dissent just like their Tea Party brothers do. My way or the highway.

          If church teachings were paramount, why would the Vatican recently receive back into full communion with the church, a bishop who is a holocaust denier? A man who has publicly stated on many occasions that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ and that the holocaust is a product of Jewish imaginations? Or is holocaust denying now part of church doctrine?
          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-readmits-holocaustdenying-priest-to-the-church-1515339.html

          • Anonymous

            The Vatican is not so involved in American politics that it would bother doing a political payback for something concerning the ACA. In terms of percentage of Catholics in the population, the US is not in the top ranks.

        • Anonymous

          And what if  The Church’s teachings are not theologically valid?  It’s a true Christian’s duty to cahllenge such teachings.  The Spirit of Martin Luther and John Clavin lives on and cannot be suppressed by the bureauracy of The Church.

          • Anonymous

            If people want to be a modern day Martin Luther or John Calvin, they are free to post their objections on the local telephone pole and walk off to form their own church. It won’t start any war in this day and age.
            Who is to decide whether Catholic teachings are theologically valid? Non-Catholics? The teaching authority of the Catholic Church, vested in the Pope and Bishops, decides what is theologically valid for Catholics–and it is not a bunch of old white men who just make decisions based on their whims, or their desire to oppress people and maintain power. Their teaching is based on Scripture, Church Tradition, and deep study into whatever the issue involves. 

            But, if you don’t accept their teaching, that is fine. You assume I am a devout Catholic, but I am actually a non-practicing Catholic. Nobody has oppressed me for my decision not to attend mass. 

    • Anonymous

       Really just stop and think of all those who dedicate there lives to liberalism. Basically the same as the church. Give us all your money do as we say we know whats better for you. 

      • Anonymous

        OMG! You have got to be kidding!

      • cleanearth

        And the right-wing extremists (not all Republicans, by the way) demanding that women give up any soverignity over their own bodies?  What are they saying? 

        Basically, they’re demanding women give up any and all control over their own bodies to any man who comes along and impregnates them because the extreme Right doesn’t want women to even have contraceptives. 

        This is not life, liberty, and happiness for women. 

        How’s that for “we know what’s best for you,” Maine_gun_guy?”

        • Anonymous

           I am with you 100 percent. I am for the people. While I am right I am also one of the may who think what a female does with her body is between her and her doctor nobody else. Like all my views the government should not be involved in the lives of the people. This is one of my big issues with liberals they complain the government needs to care for everyone but in the same breath throw in the but this this and this. The government is not there to CARE for the people. The government is to be BY the people. Anytime the government gets into the lives of the people I am opposed to it.

          • cleanearth

            Gotta tell ya, Guy, I love my Social Security. 

            Worked hard for years, saved some, didn’t make enough to save enough to live on for a long time – and I plan to live a long time yet.

            I paid into it, so I’m glad for it.  Also for Medicare, although that’s not free – they take money out of Social Security checks to pay for it, and we still pay 20% and have a deductible, too, so it’s not free, but it’s certainly better than no health care.  

            Well, the government is supposedly there to keep us safe,  The differences come when people define how “safe” we need to be kept. 

            Is it just defending us again armed military attack from outside?  Is it to keep us safe from infectious diseases when they are spreading like wildfire?   Is it to provide roads and public schools, water systems, and so on?  Is it to put people who smoke marijuana in jail, thereby costing taxpayers lots of money? 

            I don’t know just what services we ought to depend for government on, and which should be our own responsibility – seems to depend on circumstances, like so much in life. 

            I agree there’s too much government in our lives now, and too much taxation without representation.  I don’t feel I’m being represented. 

            So, maybe instead of Right and Left deciding that they’re enemies, we could talk with one another about specific issues, and what role government has to play in each, and how we could handle that issue on our own, or in cooperation with our neighbors, etc.  

    • Anonymous

      Wherever there are humans there will be corruption, guaranteed. Name me any institution that has been in existence without a history of corruption and I will show you an institution that has no history. I know you and I don’t see eye to eye on many issues but the fact that woman are not permitted access to the priesthood does not make the Church corrupt as many posters here have implied.

      • Anonymous

        Among many things, I was referring to the Catholic Church’s decades long practice of harboring child molesters, a wide-spread problem that the Church lied about for years.  It’s mistreatment of women is just another part of the whole package – I don’t understand why anyone with a clear mind would have any affiliation with this denomination.

        • Anonymous

          Tell me, if you do, why you have anything to do with this nation that
          imported and enslaved people of African decent, that killed off the
          aboriginals and broke their treaties, why it didn’t allow women to
          vote until 1920, why it permitted the needless deaths of over 2 million men in uniform during the Civil War, why it killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese in WWII by dropping an atomic bomb on each of two major cities, why during Andrew Jackson’s term in office it uprooted and caused the death of thousands of Indian natives – many of whom had already assimilated into society – why it has permitted the killing and sloughing away as medical waste of over 54 million unborn children (mostly in recognizable human adult form) through abortion, why it didn’t put an end to racial segregation until 1961-62, among other things? Yet it has only a 400 year history compared to the Church’s 2000 year old history. Do you not understand why anyone with a clear mind would want to have any affiliation with this country given its sordid, deplorable past?

          Incidentally, why do you keep bringing up the Church’s “practice of harboring child molesters” when if fact it was and is still going on in every major institution in the United States while the Church has made a lot of grounds to ameliorate its situation. Aren’t you singling out the Church repeatedly while largely ignoring all the corruption and sex abuse that has and continues to persist elsewhere. I thought child sexual abuse was child sexual abuse wherever it occurs and by whomever. Bangorian, I think you’re picking on the Church for political reasons, aren’t you? You can say what you want, but just think about all the people of good-will you are offending with your comments. Yeah, right, those Catholics are all a bunch of ignorant, stupid sheep!

          • Easy answer: Unlike the church America has grown and learned from her mistakes. Our founding document understands change happens, the culture changes, and what is ok now may not be so in 100 years. The Constitution if for only that reason will forever be THE most important document ever written by man. (and yes that includes being compared to the bible. that particular document has difficulty standing up against Aesop’s Fables)

          • cleanearth

            Okay, Dane, 

            You said, “The Constitution if for only that reason will forever be THE most important document ever written by man. (and yes that includes being compared to the bible. that particular document has difficulty standing up against Aesop’s Fables).”

            Gonna steal that comparison and I won’t even give you credit!  (Can’t, don’t know who you are.) 

             Too true, and funny, too.  Thanks for a good laugh.   {~;>

          • Anonymous

            If he didn’t take himself so seriously his comment would be even more laughable. I might add, his statement, ” what is ok now may not be so in 100 years”, reflects the mindset of someone whose values change according to his whims, that is, that truth is all relative. In short, he doesn’t appear to have any real lasting standards.

          • Anonymous

            That is the difference, the country has learned from it’s mistakes, slavery etc. and apologized .
            I am glad for your effort, but at least on this thread it is clear that you are speaking to zealots.

          • Anonymous

             The people who captured and sold slaves;  who denied women the vote; who dropped the Atomic Bomb didn’t preach to me that they were the moral authority.  They didn’t pretend to have a connection to God that I could only access through them, they didn’t sit with my dying ancestors  in their last moments, they didn’t stand in judgement of people in a confession booth. 

            And since you mentioned the history of the Catholic church, like it’s something to be proud of, I assure you that it’s moral bankruptcy extends long before the American revolution.  Do some reading about Indugences.  They were quite fond of those hundreds of years before they turned their eyes on children.

          • Anonymous

            Those people who captured & sold slaves and all the others you mentioned  did in fact preach morals and stand in judgement. You just weren’t around then to hear them preach, and your historical knowledge is selective. By the way, the practice of indulgences is still very much alive in the Church but from your comment I can only infer that you don’t understand what they are and what purpose they are intended to serve. You be must from a anti-Catholic Protestant background if that is all you can conjure up as “moral bankruptcy”.  The sins of the Church’s hierarchy in the past 2000 years of its existence pales in comparison to the sins of this government in the past 236 years of it existence. Still, I am proud of our country.

          • Anonymous

             Great – than go be proud of your church too. 

          • Anonymous

            And indulgences are coming back …

          • Anonymous

            You write; “Bangorian, I think you’re picking on the Church for political reasons, aren’t you?”
            That is precisely why the church is picking on the nuns’ organization. With the Catholic Church aligned with the most radically conservative political orgs. in this country, they cannot stand a voice that lines up its positions with what the Bible teaches. The church, on the other hand, is a man-made hierarchical organization whose administration and set-up is never mentioned in the Bible.

            You are quite strident that your church is the only real religious organization. How about this: for the first 1000 years, there was one dominant Christian organization. Then there was a split. How do you know you stayed with the original church? The bishops of Rome and Constantinople did mutual ex-communications. Who was right? You assume that you are because you say so.

            How about the Coptic churches of Ethiopia and Egypt? They also stem from the same era, the same place. but you are always saying that only your church has a 2000 year history. Well guess what? Those other churches also stem from the same period, but did not have the luxury of being organized by a Roman emperor who was not even a Christian.

            So a pagan man (Emperor Constantine) compels the religious bishops to gather and debate their religious points. Why? Because he (the pagan emperor) wanted to set up an organization that he could better control. If you have a lot of small religions with their own rules, the secular authorities will have a hard time watching them. With one centralized bureaucracy, control is easier. This is the same thing the male leaders of the Roman Church realize, and they are moving to re-assert their control. Nothing new there, the Catholic Church has been practicing this for 2000 years.

          • Anonymous

            Most of your assumptions and conclusions are wrong and appear to be designed to fit your world view. I won’t bother to address your entire comment because doing so will take an inordinate amount of time and space. I’ll simply state: The Roman Catholic Church’s history goes back 2000 years in time without reference to which other Christian churches might have a legitimate claim to such a tenure.

            Suffice to say it’s odd that you should imply that the “pagan” emperor, Constantine, convened the bishops simply because he wanted an organization “he could better control”. You have no proof or evidence to show this and, besides, you conveniently ignore the fact that his wife was a very devout Christian and Constantinople himself was fascinated by Christianity enough to cause him to become a Christian himself. Also, according to most historical sources Constantine wanted to see peace among the bishops on account of an ongoing dispute between Arius, the bishop from Alexandria, and other bishops who opposed his views.

          • Anonymous

            No, your “conclusions” are wrong and do not hold up historically or in any other way.

          • Anonymous

            Gopher, you must have come on line just to contradict all my comments. Hey, what have I done to you to deserve all this good treatment of yours? Peace, my friend, peace!

          • Anonymous

            The Church is, and has been playing policts.  For millennia.

          • Anonymous

            Oh boy, who plays politics more than our own government? Obviously you have never worked for the federal government, let alone understand the extent voters are constantly being manipulated.

          • Anonymous

            But the Church is not the government, they just wish to be.

        • Anonymous

           Cite a specific example of their mistreatment of women. Name the other denominations that harbored child molestors.

        • I am not one who readily jumps to defend the Catholic Church because as those that do know me personally know the issues I have with the Church.  However; if you believe that the pedophile issue is a “Catholic” one, you are sadly mistaken.  Every religion has had to deal with this issue.  The Catholic Church, being the largest, gets more media attention.  Google your own personal religion for issues with pedophiles and you will realize that this is not a religious issue, it is a societal issue.  The Baptists, Jehovah’s Witness’s, Protestant’s, etc. have all had to deal with issues with pedophiles.

      • Anonymous

        Corrupt it is in the sense that bachelor priests were (and are) an economic neccessity, not theological.

        • Anonymous

          An economic necessity? Though the bachelor priest might have been economically advantageous, the reason for the male-only priesthood has theological roots, whether you agree with this or not. A case for economic necessity is a poor argument with little or no evidence to support it. 

    • Guest

      Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: “If
      only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it
      were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But
      the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.
      And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

    • Anonymous

      Yes, I can. I can because there is another far greater spirit within us besides our own. It’s only when we take time to quiet ourselves and appreciate everything that we have that we can begin to know who this spirit is. When we do see it we begin to view our world in a much more positive light.

    • Anonymous

       You had best choose your words carefully and choose your words wisely. The Catholic Church is not corrupt or morally bankrupt. It has long followed certain tenants and principles that in today’s fast changing world do not seem to apply. It is difficult adjusting to such rapid changes. This is not exclusive to the Catholic church, many church’s are adapting to change. Now, I am not saying I agree or disagree with any of these changes, however think about this…. we now have…broken families, gay marriage, roe vs. wade, stay at home dads, almost half the people living off the government…translation a broken society and the first thing you do is blame the most trusted venerable institution in the world for the problem. Don’t go there, that’s their issue for them to work out, not for you to debate.

      • Anonymous

         All churches are corrupt. The degree varies but it is a given. The catholic church ( along with every other religion though most not so much )  has it’s entire foundation in it.

        What you say about broken families and such is all true. however please look to history and see what we had before. The church allowed slavery. The church would torture and kill those who did not convert.  Lets go all the way to the book you use. Words giving to men by god but he church edited it to make sure they had the power over the people? Unless you did not know it ws nto all that long ago one could BUY the pope hood..That is just a few items through time and lets not forget all the pedophiles who where scurried away and hidden in new places when caught instead of being handed over to the cops. 

        This is in no way a discounting of the people who follow there faith. The church like any leadership that grow large has issues. Those who have been around longer tend to have more of them some. Please show me the parts pointed out that do not meet your definition of “corrupt or morally bankrupt” cause if those where not enough I have plenty more for you.

        • Anonymous

           I didn’t define corrupt or morally bankrupt …you did.

    • Anonymous

      Life gets very complicated when you lack imagination.

  • Anonymous

    Ms. Fletcher and Sister Vieira rseem to have forgotten that nuns take vows, and one of those is obedience, not just to God, but to all legitimate authority placed over her–whether it is obedience to the Pope, the Bishop, or the Mother Superior of her order. Being a nun is optional–a calling that one should not enter if one does not have the proper disposition.
    In addition, even if nuns have taken vows that prevent them from exercising all the freedom of the rest of America, Catholic women have not. Catholic lay women are certainly able to speak as freely as they want.

    • What you say is true, but what better way to change a bad and harmful system than from the inside out?

      • Anonymous

        What is the bad and harmful situation you are talking about? The basic beliefs of the Church on homosexual marriage, abortion, and priesthood and its insistence on discipline? How are these harmful and bad? A house divided onto itself cannot stand. One more thing, why does the Church’s internal matters concern you? Are you supporting member of it?

        • The church’s (small “c” intentional) internal matters concern me when they attempt to inflict their policies and beliefs on others. Homosexual marriage and abortion are civil matters, matters for American’s and their government to decide. Not for some small group of men who are desperately trying to hold onto their power and influence over the masses. All those that gain power fear to lose it. The church once held ultimate power. A power they bought and paid for not with morality, but with coin. They wielded this power not with their god’s loving hand, but with an iron fist. Their rule led us into the Dark Ages, a time when there was no growth, no wisdom, and no free thought, only stagnation. I would not see that plague brought upon humanity again. The basic tenant of wisdom is to know you are not always right. The church’s unflinching adherence to bronze age dogma shows they do not have wisdom. Over the ages man has learned many things, and the church has either refused these truths, or railed against them. They follow the word of men who wrote a book 2000 years ago who may have been wise then, but would be considered ignorant now. The church’s biggest failing has been to be the stoic iron night, rather than the wise and caring king. These American nuns are trying to open the eyes of the pope, but his power has blinded him, so he pulls tighter on the reins and lashes out with his whip of authority. In the church’s arrogance and ignorance they have not learned the lessons of dictatorships past. The tighter you have your grip around those you rule over, the more those you oppress will slip through your fingers. It is high time the church went the way of Old Yeller. It has gone mad and needs to be put down.

          • Anonymous

            You’re rhetoric might be convincing to some but not to me. It’s highly opinionated and derogatory, to wit:  “attempt to INFLICT (my emphasis here) their policies”, “Homosexual marriage and abortion are civil matters…Not for some small group of men (to decide) WHO ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO HOLD ONTO THEIR POWER AND INFLUENCE”, “All those (by that I think you mean church officials) that gain power fear to lose it”, etc, etc, etc.

            Also, you obviously deny the power and truth of Holy Scripture while I don’t. Our values and assumptions therefore differ greatly.

            Finally, the Church does not hold a grip on any of its adherents as a matter of policy or practice. This “hold” you speak of appears to be more in your mindset than anything else, just like most of your prose.

            Sorry, but I don’t have much good to say about your comment, as it is mostly negative and uninspiring,  and has little to offer except one opinion after another with no facts.

            Dane, I don’t want a battle of words with you because, for one,  I don’t see any point in carrying out this discussion any further. Maybe a serious discussion between the two of us will be possible some day when our world views coincide somewhat more so than they at this moment.

            Thank you for your comment anyway.

          • Yea, I guess House was right, “Rational arguments don’t usually work on religious people, otherwise there would be no religious people”

            http://spagmonster.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/love-and-hell.jpg

          • Anonymous

            For the sake of civility I kept my comment concerning you at a minimum as to not overly offend you. Your put down however of me and other religious people says a lot about your own ability to reason, not to mention your uncivility. If you can’t be nice, just bug off.

          • Anonymous

            Oh yes, it does have a “grip” and a very strong one.

          • Anonymous

            The church has never held the worldly power to the extent you contend. There have been times when church leaders have waged wars and played politics, but the real power of the church has been in its spiritual authority, not its wealth or militaristic might. You need to study history more if you think the “Dark Ages” were what you claim. I’d be interested in knowing what historical dates mark the “Dark Ages”?

            I also cannot fathom why you care two bits for what the Catholic Church has to say. They have no authority over you.

          • Anonymous

            Time for a re-read of history–without a Catholic coverup.

    • The same can be said about the priesthood…and look what happens there…

  • Anonymous

    If you are in a relationship were you are not treated with
    respect and supported, run (do not walk) run away.  Ladies, this is an abusive relationship.

    •  Brilliantly said.

    • Anonymous

      What relationship are you talking about? The relationship of the nuns to their religious authorities? If so, may I ask how it is abusive? If the nuns are being coerced or being asked to do something that was not expected of them at the onset of their vows, then I can understand what you mean. But how exactly are they being abused when that doesn’t seem to be the case? 

      • Anonymous

        No one said abusive- ” respect & support”. And I agree- nuns are not second class citizens-

        • Anonymous

          The person I was commenting to said this: ” Ladies, this is an abusive relationship.” So, yes, someone said abusive.

          Regarding status, employees likewise are not and ought not to be treated as second class citizens even though they are subordinate to their bosses. That is, the simple fact they are subordinates doesn’t mean they should not being respected and supported by their bosses. But clearly some of the nuns in the leadership conference were being insubordinate, and the pope rightly called them out on it. As I stated earlier, a house divided onto itself cannot stand. Discipline is necessary at times to ensure cohesion. Nearly all Catholics expect this.

  • Anonymous

    well they are human. that is the problem. i am a catholic but i havent gone to churches for years. i kind of equated nuns and priests as godlike. i went to church at st johns in bangor when the jesuits were there. i did get a awakening they arent perfect . kind of through me off. that is why i dont go any more. i do believe in god though 

    • Anonymous

      Interestingly I went through the same experience you just described. Finally after an absence of several years I came to the realization that the Church has both human and divine elements in it (you can’t have a church without both). Christ established a church for a reason (for you and I and everyone one) and promised to remain united to it until the end of time. Today, it remains in spite of its frail human element by far the longest living institution. Needless to say I’m happily a part of it albeit with some frustrations now and then. I would not have it any other way as I cannot conceive NOT being a part of it.

      Incidentally, the fact its adherents are human is the reason for its existence and why I am in it. Christ came to save sinners like myself through it. Feel free to return to it as I did in small but significant steps.

      • Anonymous

        “Feel free to return to it as I did in small but significant steps.”

        How about those of us who have already tried and found no signifance?  The loving church of my youth has died and I discovered, in its place, a right-leaning church that ostracizes gay people.  I am straight, but found that too hypocritical for me to support.
        Luckily, my faith survived.

        • Anonymous

          The Church has not changed its moral and doctrinal teachings. You were taught that sex outside the context of marriage was sinful. Does that mean gays are being ostracized? Like Christ, the Church extends an arm of mercy to repentant sinners like the prostitute in the gospel accounts that was about to be stoned to death. Don’t you see the similarity here?

          What other recourse should the Church have for sinners which we all are? Surely, telling penitents that their sins are not harmful and that they should not worry about them is not what Christ intended when he told the prostitute “your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”.

          • Know what else was really great that christ said? “Oh for shame,  how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given.” Oh sorry that was Zues. How about, “I have sacrificed much to achieve peace. So too must a new generation sacrifice to maintain that peace. Responsibility! Duty! Honor! These are not mere virtues to which we must aspire. They are essential to every soldier, and every king!”… Wait, that was Odin. Still the sentiments are the same, words written by men and ascribed to a myth of a god in order to get other men the live a certain way. Odin, Zeus, Christ… they have many shapes and forms, but none are anymore real than the other. It was man’s imagination that brought these gods to life. It is a pity they didn’t remain in the storys to which they were born. Instead, men brought them to “life” and it has caused nothing but death and grief since.

          • Anonymous

            You are right about all these gods: they were man-made creations. But Christ certainly is not. Therein lies the difference!

          • The All Father (Odin) is just as real as your god. Asgard awaits, and if you are strong and brave enough there may even be a seat for you in Valhalla. 

  • Anonymous

     Face it. The RCC jig is up.

    It all started to go south when the Mass was changed from Latin to English in the US.
    And then, of course, there was ‘Folk Mass’, lay Eucharistic ministers. and marriage annulments.

    It’s been all downhill since.

  • Anonymous

    Maybe the church has been mixing religion and politics too much.  Perhaps if the Vatican abided by the need to separate church from state their membership wouldn’t be so inclined to start pushing their own agendas. The church should stick to church doctrine and matters of religion.  Then this situation along with so many other instances of political interference wouldn’t be an issue.

    • Anonymous

      The Church was “spoiled” by being The Sate Church for too many centuries.  They’re trying to reclaim their lost mandate.

  • Anonymous

    ‘but other nuns — including the leadership — said they couldn’t publicly comment on a system that mandates their obedience.’  Gives new meaning to the word dogma doesn’t it ladies (aka nuns)??  Bark, Bark… sit…. good dogs.  

  • Let me start by saying, I am no longer a Catholic and have not been for quite sometime.  I left the church for many 
    reasons some of which had to with it’s attitude toward Women (don’t get me started on the topic of the Sexual 
    Abuse).  Over the years, what respect I had for this institution has eroded.  Having said that, let me say this…I 
    was educated by Nuns; first the Dominican’s of Sparkhill, NY, then by the Ursulines and Sisters of Mercy 
    (NY)…from these dedicated women I received an incredible education and sense of self-worth. IMHO, Nuns are and 
    always have been the Heart and Backbone of the church. To have the male hierarchy treat them in this way, bespeaks 
    of a serious lack of respect for all those women past and present who gave their lives to their God and church.  
    Whatever minimal amount of respect, I still had for this church, is now gone, dead, never to be revived.  

    I have acknowledged the church’s objections to Birth Control, Abortion and Women as Priests with the 
    somewhat naive hope that they would finally grow-up and join the 21st Century.  Obviously, that is not going to 
    happen, this male dominated  church is stuck in the Dark Ages and refuses to be pulled in the present.  If they were to take a 21st Century view of the world, they would be unable to keep Women from their proper place as Priests.  As long as they remain in the Dark Ages they will continue to see their numbers decrease and those that stay will follow their own minds and ignore the rules and teachings that are archaic.  I foresee the Catholic Church as becoming more irrelevant as time marches on and leaves them behind. I can only say..Good Riddence…dma

    • Anonymous

       A good Captain stays with their ship no matter how bad the storm. A person who jumps ship may have no ship at all once the storm passes.  I have remained true to my Catholic religion no matter what changes have occurred. I have not always practiced it. I have not left it and will never leave it because it is engrained in me since the day I was born. My perspective is that it is society that is changing and that religion is slow to adapt to these changes or vice versa. eventually an equilibrium or balance is achieved. It takes time, and it takes patience. To many people make snap decisions and snap judgments. This week or this year it’s woman’s issues. Four years ago it was pedophiles. Women participate in the church. They have a voice, they help set a direction, in fact I believe women have more of a say in the church then men. My grandmother started our parish. She ruled the family. She pretty much told my grandfather and father the way it was. It boils down to perspective not commentary or what is the politically correct flavor of the day.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t know why they should be stunned.Women have been mistreated and considered second class both inside and outside of the CC for 20 centuries.Why change now?

    • wondering the same thing. These women just need to get back into the kitchen and make dinner for the priests,bishops, and cardinals within the church. 

  • Anonymous

    It is my opinion that the Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy has zero credibility.

  • Anonymous

    The Catholic hierarchy is being unfairly criticized here. They’re never done anything wrong. If disloyal nuns can’t accept basic teachings, let them leave. I follow the Good Bishop Malone’s sermons here.  Most critics are Communists anyway. God Bless the Pope and the College of Cardinals.

  • Anonymous

    They can tolerate child molestation, but not this….

  • Anonymous

    Considering how hard it is to get any young man to try for the priest hood and the shortage of priests, the Church is  wasting its major asset, the nuns.

  • Anonymous

    Grumpy old men losing their grip, that’s what it is; its not very pretty. 

  • Anonymous

    This letter is from todays NYT’s.

    I am a lifelong Catholic, 80-plus years, and will die a Catholic. But I will not be silent in my support of the tireless work and dedication of the wonderful nuns who serve the poor and the helpless, the sick and infirm, the children and elderly, who even go to jail for the cause of protesting the evil of war and nuclear threats to humanity and the world.I will speak out loudly in protest at the Vatican document’s citing of nuns for, as your article says, focusing “too much on poverty and economic injustice, while keeping ‘silent’ on abortion and same-sex marriage.”How can there ever be too much focus on poverty and economic injustice? And how can the Vatican justly rebuke women busy selflessly carrying out Christ’s work caring for the least of our brethren for being silent on abortion and homosexuality, while for decades bishops were silent about grave sins against the innocent in their care?Herewith is my tribute to the thousands of nuns who deserve our respect and admiration. I am having shirts made up for my Catholic and non-Catholic friends and family to wear that state, “I’m with her!”PATRICIA BURNS
    Edgewater, N.J., April 19, 2012

  • Anonymous

    Having a friend who was a priest for some 18 years was enlightening to say the least. The stories he told me of accepted behavior by priests was astounding.  My friend spoke seven languages and was assigned for several years at the Vatican before being assigned to America.  A few years later he left the church. His father in Ireland (who had committed him as a child to the church) disowned him and refused to speak or mention his name again.  I met my friend in my work administering a major computer center where he came to work as a computer systems analyst.  He was brilliant at his work and we became immediate friends.  Now understand that he had been out of the church for several years at that point.  One day he came in late (which was acceptable for his position) and gave me the following account.  He had spent the night at his girlfriend’s and returned to his apartment to prepare for work about six am, only to find a bishop from the Vatican sitting on the front steps of his apartment.  The bishop explained that he had to come to New York on Vatican business and while he was in the country he thought he would stop in and AGAIN try to convince my friend to return to the priesthood.  Mind you, this took place in CALIFORNIA.  (A little side trip?)  I asked my friend how they could do that after he had been out of the church for years, had lots of girlfriends and sex and all.  He said that the entire time he was away from the church would just disappear like it never happened. That is how it works. Furthermore he explained that priests in New York often go on holiday in Florida and engage prostitutes and have a grand old time and all is forgiven.  I could tell you much more, but you get the picture.  The idea that priests are celibate is a joke.  Why would a horny heterosexual abstain for the love of God when so many of his peers and leaders are perverts and the Vatican just looks the other way.  Enough for today….. The sisters should run the church. They are givers instead of takers. 

  • Moral according to who?

  • Anonymous

    Almost all the posters on this article are not Catholic, and have no understanding about the Catholic Faith.  If everyone knew what the Catholic Faith was about, they would all rush to join it.  Most people are content to live in their own sins, and do not like to be told that they are not obedient to God.  Obviously, many of you in these posts don’t even believe in God in the first place, so it’s hard to convince you to obey him.

    The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, who is God who took the form of a man.  He redeemed our souls by undergoing a horrible suffering and death, to set an example for us.  God hates sin so much that he created hell because of just the one sin of Lucifer.  God hates sin so much that he condemned mankind to a life of suffering which ends in death, and a possibility of hell, because of the one sin of Adam and Eve.

    God loves us so much that he gives us the chance to repent and spend a fantastic eternity with him.  We pay a price for our sins, though.  Suffering is our ticket to heaven, as Jesus showed us by his example.  We can be saved only through the grace of God, and suffering is a path to grace.  Innocent people can suffer as well, and God uses their suffering to produce graces that can even benefit the rest of us who are not so innocent.

    When we disobey God, we cut ourselves off from his grace.  The only way we can get back into his graces is to repent of our sins, and to strive to avoid them in the future.  The Catholic Church is the bridge between earth and heaven.  Jesus meant for it to be the earthly dispensary of his graces through the sacraments which are available through the priesthood.  Jesus gave his apostles, the first priests, the authority that was given to him by God the Father, and that authority has been passed down by the apostles to the pope, bishops, and priests of today. 

    Jesus intended for all people of the earth to be Catholic, and he hoped that all of us would be granted salvation.  The pride of mankind has caused many to leave the Catholic faith, either completely, or to be part of a religion started by another human being.  Many of us seem to believe that we know what’s best for ourselves, rather than accepting the teachings of the God who created us.  He loves us dearly, and he wants us to spend eternity with him, but he won’t force us to go along with him.  We just have to know that Jesus will judge us according to our actions after we die.

    As for the dispute with the nuns, America’s nuns, in general, have been drifting away from God for a long time.  Their pride is leading them to believe that their own outlook on life is better than what God has expected of them.  They need to be brought into line, because if they do not obey Catholic teaching, they are disobeying God, and they will lead souls astray in the process.  If they don’t like Catholic teaching, they should leave the Church, and not poison other souls with heretical beliefs.

    As to whether the Catholic Church demeans women, one would have to consider it to be odd that the Catholic Church considers a woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary, to be God’s greatest creature.  The Catholic Church elevates women in a way that the secular world does not.  Being able to bear a new soul for the glory of God is not something a man can do.  Men and women are not the same, and God intended it to be that way.  In the Catholic view, motherhood is a very high calling, and children are to be loved and received in thanksgiving for the wonderful gift that they are from God.  The secular world sees a child as a parasite, to be murdered if it is not convenient for the mother to have.  In the Old Testament, God considered child sacrifice to be the most abominable sin there is.  I wonder what price we may have to pay for our legality of abortion, as the blood of tens of millions of babies cries out for justice.  Those babies would have no voice in this world, if not for the Catholic Church.  

  • Anonymous

    These women dedicate their lives to god and live in poverty to do so. My experiences with Presentaion Nuns was wonderful and I think of their influence on me and my life daily.

  • Anonymous

    Wow. The Catholic Church is getting a lot of negative comments. I see morally corrupt and spiritually bankrupt in some of these. These are words that the guy downstairs is spreading. My aunt lived a live of poverty and dedicated her entire life as nun for the poor. She was like Mother Theresa and for the life of me I could not understand someone doing this when I was growing up. Now I am older and the amount of respect and regard I can give to her is too late. I guess Hollywood and the mass media are far more legit and have a greater accountability than the Church. No wonder society is going down the tubes…

  • Anonymous

    The Vatican/Catholic Church is at best a paternalistic, antiquated, out of touch bunch of “good old boys.”  At worst they are a bunch of deceitful, money and power hungry misogynists who continue to push their slimy, self righteous agenda on all those who are capable of being brainwashed.  They should fix themselves before they find fault with the rest of the world.

  • Anonymous

    ?? if it wasnt for sin, who would need religion?
    I beleive in god. I am not trusting in the words that I read at times. All the words have been written by a man. Women are needed in religion. The woman is the mans partner. I also have to question, if one religion is so opposed to birthcontrol of all fashion, are they also against all medical cures? After all, if you get sick with cancer it is gods will, if you die during birth it is gods will? It is so gray. it is about power.

  • In the Islam religion women have no rights and are basically “property”…sounds to me like the “Pope” is kind of saying the same thing.  That’s sad, very, very sad.

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